Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Emily's Cat said:
I doubt this wins any votes for tact... but it's a very good point. Especially the last sentence.

I think that's where a fair bit of the conflict on this topic comes up. I think everyone who has participated in this thread is fully supportive of the first clause: laws should prevent other people doing damage to any group of people. I feel like some of the more avid activists want the latter though, and think that the law should force people to be accepting.
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But isn't that the whole point of any and every anti-discrimination law? Including gender?

I'd argue that if something gets made the law, then acceptance, even if not immediate, must inevitably follow, grudgingly at first, in greater numbers in some more time, until finally it gets internalized and fully (or at least largely) accepted.
 
ponderingturtle said:
You seem confused on this point, they don't have the body of someone who can reproduce. Why is this a such a big deal that you ignore basic biological facts? This is to make things nice and easy and bring hard science into this whole thing. That is what people are so on about
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Please stop swarming the field with your army of strawmen.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Good video. Really good points about any objection getting one labelled a bigot, and that reinforcing the "be seen not heard" social aspect of conditioning females.
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That is true, but also people who speak in favour of LGBTQ rights are often labelled as authoritarians, Stalinists, Nazis or compared to ISIS.

I have been called both a transphobe and a Stalinist by the respective sides of the debate.

The trick is not to mind.
 
Robin said:
That is true, but also people who speak in favour of LGBTQ rights are often labelled as authoritarians, Stalinists, Nazis or compared to ISIS.

I have been called both a transphobe and a Stalinist by the respective sides of the debate.

The trick is not to mind.
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Labelling a young sportswoman aiming for the top a bigot is a big deal.
 
Sometimes the internet rabbit hole wins the battle for my attention. But sometimes, it also makes me laugh:

https://twitter.com/ElizaPetch/status/1333344643631689731

Patriarchy : women should do the washing up.

Gender Critical : both sexes can do the washing up

TRAs : the member of either sex who does the washing up is the woman

...

Yes there should be a 4th entry:

Liberal Feminism : the focus of feminism should be relieving the oppression and elevating the status of those male women who wash up because they are then most oppressed and vulnerable.
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Emily's Cat said:
Sometimes the internet rabbit hole wins the battle for my attention. But sometimes, it also makes me laugh:
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That reminds me a bit of another joke.

Q: How many gender studies majors does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A: THAT'S NOT FUNNY! :mad:
 
Emily's Cat said:
The right of parents so woke that they're downright insomniacs to let children who are too young to legally give consent in any contract or even to consent to sex decide that they want to make permanent, life-altering, and dangerous changes to their not-yet-grown bodies?
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The whole point of puberty blockers is to delay permanent, life altering changes to their bodies until they're older. And obviously "puberty blockers" have to be used before puberty.
 
Transphobes in a tizzy once again as actor Elliot Page announces he is a transgender man. Page is probably best known for costarring in the film "Juno" and is currently featured in the Netflix series "Umbrella Academny".
 
The solution is obvious: only give puberty-blockers to those children who are definitely going to go on and change their sex; and don't give puberty-blockers to those children who are going to change their mind later.
 
d4m10n said:
Examples?
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I think the news is still too fresh for actual articles to be published yet, but the normal transphobic coalition of right wing reactionaries and TERFS are having a field day with it on Twitter. I'm sure there will be pearl clutching articles coming out shortly.

Matt Walsh of the Daily Wire seems to be spending quite a bit of time thinking about this issue: https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog

I'm not familiar enough with fringe TERF outlets to know who counts as a leading voice, but there's no shortage of teeth gnashing from TERFs mourning the loss of a lesbian woman to the patriarchal oppression, as they see it, of transgenderism. Maybe we need to give the UK a few more days to catch up the news, you can always count on that bastion of transphobic bigotry to produce some truly idiotic takes.

Claire Heuchan, pen name Sister Outrider, a TERF writer with some reach seems to be categorizing this as another lesbian woman bowing to the pressures of the patriarchy. https://twitter.com/ClaireShrugged/status/1333850126037753860

Not sure how much Graham Linehan matters these days after getting shown the door from mainstream social media, but he's the same as ever:
You may have heard the news that an actor wasn’t getting enough attention.

Chaser: A poem to lesbian erasure and internalised misogyny in the form of a Wiki entry.
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https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-disappearing-lesbian
 
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Earthborn said:
The whole point of puberty blockers is to delay permanent, life altering changes to their bodies until they're older. And obviously "puberty blockers" have to be used before puberty.
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The problem is that the use of puberty blockers itself is likely to be a permanent, life altering change. The use of puberty blockers has sometimes been described as "reversible", but there's actually no real evidence that this is true, and plenty of reason to suspect otherwise.
 
theprestige said:
One doesn't have to be a transphobe to think that Ellen Page is being an attention-seeking clown.

Exhibit A: Me.
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Is there any way for a popular culture celebrity to transition that you wouldn't consider attention-seeking? What should Page have done here differently that you wouldn't categorize so harshly?

For better or worse, cultural icons command a tremendous amount of public attention. It's not like this is something that Page could just do and not draw public scrutiny.

IMO, making a brief, clear statement such as this is probably the least attention seeking option possible, rather than engaging in some clandestine paparazzi-dodging campaign over months and letting rumors fly.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
IMO, making a brief, clear statement such as this is probably the least attention seeking option possible, rather than engaging in some clandestine paparazzi-dodging campaign over months and letting rumors fly.
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I don't know if it's attention-seeking, maybe not. Frankly, I don't care enough to try to find out. But it's hard for me to escape the conclusion that she's just unhappy with her life, and looking to change something. And if I'm right, that's not clownish, it's just sad (as in tragic, not as in lame), because this likely won't fix anything.
 
Ziggurat said:
The problem is that the use of puberty blockers itself is likely to be a permanent, life altering change.
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Which is why they are only prescribed to kids who seem to have a persistent transgender identity. The blockers give them more to time to think about what other treatments they will seek, but this stuff is only prescribed to them when it seems pretty clear what choice they are going to make.

The use of puberty blockers has sometimes been described as "reversible", but there's actually no real evidence that this is true, and plenty of reason to suspect otherwise.
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No medical procedure is perfectly reversible. I don't think anyone is claiming that. It is relatively reversible compared to either having to go through puberty or taking hormones of the other sex.
 
Matthew Best said:
The solution is obvious: only give puberty-blockers to those children who are definitely going to go on and change their sex; and don't give puberty-blockers to those children who are going to change their mind later.
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elmo.gif
 
Ziggurat said:
...it's hard for me to escape the conclusion that she's just unhappy with her life, and looking to change something.
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If by her life you mean "living as a woman" and by something you mean "gender," then your conclusion seems self-evidently true.
 
Matthew Best said:
The solution is obvious: only give puberty-blockers to those children who are definitely going to go on and change their sex; and don't give puberty-blockers to those children who are going to change their mind later.
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Have they lined up the team of psychics and prophets?
 
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