Trump's Coup d'état.

[Darat]

I actually agree with you, and personally believe Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results will fail.

However, I’ve learned to hedge my bets on all things Trump in the last 5 or so years and my faith in the systems designed to keep people like him in check has been profoundly shaken.

But win or lose, Trump continues to severely damage this country. We’re hemorrhaging right now. And assurances that we probably won’t bleed out and die don’t feel very comforting.

That’s the problem, they weren’t designed to control someone like him, they were designed to control people with some integrity, some “honour” and a sense of personal responsibility. Trump has none of those attributes.

Mind you I can see after 21st January that there will suddenly be a huge ruckus about controlling the president and reducing his powers... Oh and executive orders will again be tyrannical!

 

[eerok]

We might disagree on what to call this thing, and most likely it'll end up being called a failure, but it's clear that Trump has been causing an unprecedented amount of damage to the country. It is serious, it is tragic, and it is alarming. He's broken a lot of stuff.

It appears so far that the American electoral system is robust enough to survive this assault, but this has to be a wake up call. One big problem is that the worst component of the GOP seems likely to renew the assault as soon as possible. One reassuring fact is that, notably at the state level, many Republicans are not willing to help kill American democracy.

This is going to be a nasty couple of months, though.

 

[crescent]

I actually agree with you, and personally believe Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results will fail.

However, I’ve learned to hedge my bets on all things Trump in the last 5 or so years and my faith in the systems designed to keep people like him in check has been profoundly shaken.

But win or lose, Trump continues to severely damage this country. We’re hemorrhaging right now. And assurances that we probably won’t bleed out and die don’t feel very comforting.

I remember when the Swift Boat thing sank John Kerry's campaign. The Dems were caught flat-footed by the whole thing, didn't know how to respond and were very, very slow to try to counter the allegations.

When the email investigation was reopened at the last minute, again there was surprise.

But the Dem's have learned, and were ready and waiting for the GOP to make false accusations this time around.

I think that's a big reason why these challenges to the votes have been so ineffective - they were predicted months ago. The GOP is doing exactly what the Dems predicted they would try to do, as published in a number of articles.

We had articles predicting that the GOP would try to get Republican-controlled state governments to override the popular vote (if those Republican-controlled states voted Dem) and appoint pro-Republican EC delegations. Now, months later, that's exactly what they are trying to do.

I think if the Dems had not have been expecting this, things might have been more problematic. The effort to overturn the votes has failed, in part, because it was predicted and prepared for ("See - we told you so!"). Had the Democrats not been ready for it, had this been a surprise - who knows?

 

[crescent]

We might disagree on what to call this thing, and most likely it'll end up being called a failure, but it's clear that Trump has been causing an unprecedented amount of damage to the country. It is serious, it is tragic, and it is alarming. He's broken a lot of stuff.

It appears so far that the American electoral system is robust enough to survive this assault, but this has to be a wake up call. One big problem is that the worst component of the GOP seems likely to renew the assault as soon as possible. One reassuring fact is that, notably at the state level, many Republicans are not willing to help kill American democracy.

This is going to be a nasty couple of months, though.

He didn't just move the Overton Window, he ripped it halfway out of the wall, broke the frame and cracked the glass. Then punched a hole in the wall where he thought the window should be.

 

[eerok]

That’s the problem, they weren’t designed to control someone like him, they were designed to control people with some integrity, some “honour” and a sense of personal responsibility. Trump has none of those attributes.

Mind you I can see after 21st January that there will suddenly be a huge ruckus about controlling the president and reducing his powers... Oh and executive orders will again be tyrannical!

And after having thrown billions away on a useless piece of fence, suddenly government spending by Dems will be fiscally irresponsible.

Anyway, as for the design of the American government in general, I think there are protections built in, even for a rogue jackass like Trump. I think that the Executive is not sufficient in itself to seize control of the country. They need the election, and it seems as if they can't overturn it.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

And after having thrown billions away on a useless piece of fence, suddenly government spending by Dems will be fiscally irresponsible.

Anyway, as for the design of the American government in general, I think there are protections built in, even for a rogue jackass like Trump. I think that the Executive is not sufficient in itself to seize control of the country. They need the election, and it seems as if they can't overturn it.

We might be able to sell off the wall, piece by piece, to get some money back.

 

[eerok]

We might be able to sell off the wall, piece by piece, to get some money back.

Trump has failed at every other business he tried. Maybe he could open a scrapyard for the dreams of his base.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump has failed at every other business he tried. Maybe he could open a scrapyard for the dreams of his base.

I'll give him 100 bucks for his toupee - no need to send it, I'll collect it myself.

 

[eerok]

He didn't just move the Overton Window, he ripped it halfway out of the wall, broke the frame and cracked the glass. Then punched a hole in the wall where he thought the window should be.

Can the Overton Window be shifted back? I'd think so. I'd hope so. But it's sort of like putting the genie back in the bottle.

 

[Trebuchet]

Trump is going to give up soon if he hasn't already.

He MAY give up on attempts to overturn the election. May. He might allow transition work to begin. But I doubt it.

In any case, he'll be banging the rigged elections, millions of illegal votes drum to the day he dies.

Time to pull your heads out of the sand, it's a coup attempt no matter how you slice it.

Absolutely. Fortunately, like pretty much everything else in the administration, the people working on it are incompetent morons.

I actually agree with you, and personally believe Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results will fail.

However, I’ve learned to hedge my bets on all things Trump in the last 5 or so years and my faith in the systems designed to keep people like him in check has been profoundly shaken.

But win or lose, Trump continues to severely damage this country. We’re hemorrhaging right now. And assurances that we probably won’t bleed out and die don’t feel very comforting.

I agree with everything there. He'll eventually be out but the damage will last for decades. Especially the destruction of confidence in American democracy.

 

[phiwum]

There were ten. 3 were invalidated under state level laws, the others stood.

You're right, I was imprecise. I meant enough faithless electors to throw the election to Clinton.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[eerok]

One reassuring fact is that, notably at the state level, many Republicans are not willing to help kill American democracy.

This has come into question just now with the GOP seeking to delay certification in MI.

 

[d4m10n]

It appears so far that the American electoral system is robust enough to survive this assault, but this has to be a wake up call.

I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy is even now in the hands of a couple hundred (GOP) state legislators and even fewer individuals on county-level election boards.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Can the Overton Window be shifted back? I'd think so. I'd hope so. But it's sort of like putting the genie back in the bottle.

Studies suggest that it can't ... but it can be replaced.

If you convince enough people that the past is the past, and what we do from here is something new, then the old standards of what is acceptable no longer apply - see Jim Crow etc.

That is why I think we absolutely need a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to document, not prosecute, all the violations and crimes by all the people under the Trump Administration.

The only way forward is to look objectively at the last four years, and then put them behind us.

 

[Darat]

Studies suggest that it can't ... but it can be replaced.

If you convince enough people that the past is the past, and what we do from here is something new, then the old standards of what is acceptable no longer apply - see Jim Crow etc.

That is why I think we absolutely need a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to document, not prosecute, all the violations and crimes by all the people under the Trump Administration.

The only way forward is to look objectively at the last four years, and then put them behind us.

You can do all the reports and commissions you want, but if there is no deterrent why should the next Trump not do the same? People need to know that there are consequences if you act as Trump and his cronies have done.

 

[eerok]

I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy is even now in the hands of a couple hundred (GOP) state legislators and even fewer individuals on county-level election boards.

I understand that Witmer has the power to step in if she has cause, and she absolutely would have cause if they try this on Monday. They have a duty to certify, and they can be turfed if they fail in their duty.

 

[eerok]

You can do all the reports and commissions you want, but if there is no deterrent why should the next Trump not do the same? People need to know that there are consequences if you act as Trump and his cronies have done.

Arguably both are needed. Trump clearly needs to be swatted back to insignificance, but it can't seem vindictive or arbitrary, because that'd fuel retaliation. Well, there may be no way to avoid that anyway.

 

[Chanakya]

You can do all the reports and commissions you want, but if there is no deterrent why should the next Trump not do the same? People need to know that there are consequences if you act as Trump and his cronies have done.

This.

Merely documenting away and making people aware, while necessary, might, if decoupled from punishment following on these investigations, arguably actually present future Trumps with a detailed how-to manual!

 

[Mike!]

Can the Overton Window be shifted back? I'd think so. I'd hope so. But it's sort of like putting the genie back in the bottle.

You could maybe trick a genie into going back in the bottle.
This might be more of a toothpaste back in the tube issue.

 

[Thermal]

I find it incredibly disturbing that the future of American democracy is even now in the hands of a couple hundred (GOP) state legislators and even fewer individuals on county-level election boards.

Its not. Or rather, no more than at any other time.

Put yourself in their position. You know Trump lost (and yes, they all know. Trump is uniquely stupid on this point). You know that capriciously overturning election results is Treason with a capital T. You also know you have to maintain some semblance of solidarity with your party if you want a political future. You know damn right well the military is sworn to protect the Constitution above blindly following orders, and will string you personally up by your balls if you get treasonous. What do you do?

IMO, you soft-pedal going along with the crazy for a couple months, without doing anything that would put you on Team Capital Offense. And that is precisely what we are seeing.