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Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

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Fort Knox doesn't mail the gold out to everybody on the voter roll, the ballots are mailed out to everybody on the voter roll. If there is more security on the ballots in the states we are talking about vs the ballots in this case in the UK, I'm unaware of it.

This means you are now saying that you can't draw any inference from the UK case to the 2020 US GE.

Wish you'd make your mind up - is it or is it not relevant to the 2020 USA GE?

If you claim it is then you must have researched how that ballot worked so you can tell that the current security/checks/sops in the states contested would not have detected the same crime.

And yes it is a "must" otherwise you cannot make your claim or rather it is a claim with no substance, a claim with no evidence.


Mind you - this is all just a song and dance isn't it? As it is more than obvious that you haven't done any significant research into election fraud in the USA nor the UK beyond some very quick google searches so you don't even have an informed opinion never mind any evidence of any way possible large scale fraud could happen.
 
I see the way you've combined fraud and error there. Be careful to remember the crucial differences between the two. If Trump's team find instances of error, that doesn't imply anything about fraud.
Trump doesn't have to show fraud. Error would do as well. The misconfigured tally machine with the 6000 in correctly assigned votes doesn't seem to be fraud, but it all counts. You then descend down the bottomless pit of "were the errors really innocent?". He'll probably throw it all into the general bucket with "fraud" written on the front of it to keep the branding punchy.
 
Trump doesn't have to show fraud. Error would do as well. The misconfigured tally machine with the 6000 in correctly assigned votes doesn't seem to be fraud, but it all counts. You then descend down the bottomless pit of "were the errors really innocent?". He'll probably throw it all into the general bucket with "fraud" written on the front of it to keep the branding punchy.

No.
 
Step 1: Initial Assumption: "Obviously since Lord Trump the God-King didn't win, the Dems must have cheated."
Step 2: Rationalization: "Google: Election Fraud and at least get confirmation that Election Fraud is at least a thing that could happen."
Step 3: Stonewall: "Prove to me that the Dems didn't steal the election in some undefined way."
 
Trump doesn't have to show fraud. Error would do as well. The misconfigured tally machine with the 6000 in correctly assigned votes doesn't seem to be fraud, but it all counts. You then descend down the bottomless pit of "were the errors really innocent?". He'll probably throw it all into the general bucket with "fraud" written on the front of it to keep the branding punchy.

So we don't all talk at cross purposes can you clarify which one you mean in the above hilite.
 
That's not what the judge in the case thought. The claim on the forum seems to be that they were caught because they produced so many fake votes that they upped the turnout by 350%. Given that those clowns were able to produce that incredible volume of votes, wouldn't a more competent, or less hard working, clown succeed by sticking to a more modest volume? Again, I don't see what is difficult about what they did, or what in the process would catch them except the signature.

I feel like we are stuck in a loop where all examples of voter/election fraud are counted as evidence that such fraud isn't possible since by definition given that we know about them they were caught and hence the system works. This effectively excludes the possibility of using evidence from other elections to at least show that what is claimed is possible.

Small scale fraud can work.

Conspiracies really do happen and sometimes they are successful, but they have to involve very small numbers of people.
 
Thread is too fast moving ... I would respond to some post about the PA lawsuit if I could find it in this mess of a thread...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/13/business/porter-wright-trump-pennsylvania.html
Law Firm Stops Representing Trump Campaign in Pennsylvania Suit
Porter Wright said in a court filing that it would no longer represent the campaign in a federal lawsuit alleging widespread voter irregularities.
...
Previously, Porter Wright had filed a number of other actions in Pennsylvania courts challenging aspects of the state’s voting process. It isn’t clear if the firm will continue to represent Mr. Trump’s campaign on those cases. A Porter Wright representative didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment on Friday.


In the words of Rick Wilson: ETTD (Everything Trump Touches Dies)

Also, EWSTIMBPFTM (Everyone Who Sends Trump an Invoice Must Be Prepared to Fight for Their Money).
 
Trump doesn't have to show fraud. Error would do as well.

He would have to prove a systematic error that resulted in tens of thousands of votes being incorrectly tallied for Biden in multiple states. The burden of proof on that would be astronomically high.

The misconfigured tally machine with the 6000 in correctly assigned votes doesn't seem to be fraud, but it all counts.

No, it really doesn't. An error that is detected and corrected at the time is practically by definition an error that doesn't count, in that it literally doesn't count. And of Trump's lawyers presented that as evidence of tens of thousands of stolen votes, the judge would give it as much attention as your "voting frauds have been detected in other countries under other systems therefore they may have gone undetected in this country" argument.

You then descend down the bottomless pit of "were the errors really innocent?". He'll probably throw it all into the general bucket with "fraud" written on the front of it to keep the branding punchy.

Trump will, of course, say all that, but there is literally nothing Trump would not say if he thought it would suit his purpose. The courts have so far very properly asked the plaintiffs to supply evidence of significant fraud, and in its absence have very politely stopped short of telling them to **** right off, and simply declined even to hear the suit.

Dave
 
This means you are now saying that you can't draw any inference from the UK case to the 2020 US GE.
There are presumably things we all don't know about the security of any given precinct in the election. Hence we'd better shut down the thread because we are in a quandary of epistemic doubt? This is an argument against all comparisons and examples since there is always the possibility that there is a significant difference between the cases that we aren't aware of. The forum doesn't run like that on topics that people aren't emotionally invested in.

Wish you'd make your mind up - is it or is it not relevant to the 2020 USA GE?
It is relevant since it shows how easy it is for a bunch of clowns to hoover up thousands of ballots and get them filled out. I'm not clear that anybody has come up with an argument against this beyond if they turn up at the election office with a uhaul and start unloading the votes in front of people it may be too obvious.

If you claim it is then you must have researched how that ballot worked so you can tell that the current security/checks/sops in the states contested would not have detected the same crime.
Darat, you are emotionally invested in this and are applying a standard of evidence that you wouldn't ask for elsewhere. I am not arguing that anything like the UK case took place in any particular precinct. All I am saying is that rejecting the idea that it could happen when it has happened in other places and demanding knowledge that only an election official in the specific precinct would have effectively takes this discussion outside the realms of what can be had on a forum like this. Somehow we manage to discuss other topics and muddle through our ignorance there, but not this one?

And yes it is a "must" otherwise you cannot make your claim or rather it is a claim with no substance, a claim with no evidence.
My claim is that it isn't that hard to harvest up a few thousand ballots and get them filled out. My example is of some clowns doing that and a judge saying it isn't that hard. I've made a claim and provided evidence. Does it exclude the possibility that some unknown, unknown may show it couldn't happen in the US case, no.... but we don't typically demand that level of absolute certainty when we aren't trying to shut down an argument.

Mind you - this is all just a song and dance isn't it? As it is more than obvious that you haven't done any significant research into election fraud in the USA nor the UK beyond some very quick google searches so you don't even have an informed opinion never mind any evidence of any way possible large scale fraud could happen.
It is a big topic, and one can't be an expert on everything. As is often the case on the forum new material is appearing, counter evidence to things that appeared established comes to light and people make errors and misremember things. If you look I have been the one providing the primary sources to the thread and listening to 2 hour interrogation recordings. What have you done in terms of research and contributing to the thread that makes you think you are in a position to throw your weight around? You guys are taking the approach of the Monty Python Argument sketch and are automatic gainsaying anything that is suggested that lends any degree of credence to Trumps claims. I don't understand the attitude.
 
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He has no idea about the lawsuits, you seem to be indicating that Trump is actually doing something, that he is organising these various law suits brought by people that are not Trump, that he coordinates them, that they are part of strategy or plan he has come up with.

There is no evidence that he is doing this and the evidence we have is that it would be entirely exceptional for him to be organising such a campaign.

You're kidding? Right? All Trump has to do is to instruct his paid lawyers to cease and desist. The lawsuits are being pursued on his behalf.
 
There are presumably things we all don't know about the security of any given precinct in the election. Hence we'd better shut down the thread because we are in a quandary of epistemic doubt? This is an argument against all comparisons and examples since there is always the possibility that there is a significant difference between the cases that we aren't aware of. The forum doesn't run like that on topics that people aren't emotionally invested in.

And the courts don't work like that either. They don't bother drawing themselves into interminable logic-chopping as to whether something that happened somewhere at some time implies that it may or may not be possible that something else happened somewhere else at some other time. They simply ask, "What specific allegations are you making, and what evidence do you have to support them?" And when the allegations are vague and the evidence is pathetic, they tell the plaintiffs to stop wasting their time. So far, that's happened in every case of alleged election fraud, and if it continues to happen then nothing will change.

Dave
 
He would have to prove a systematic error that resulted in tens of thousands of votes being incorrectly tallied for Biden in multiple states. The burden of proof on that would be astronomically high.
Perhaps so. We have already found that thousands of votes have been counted incorrectly and made it at least some way through the system towards the final count and in one down ballot case, causing an incorrect winner to be announced. I agree that the odds are low, but even from the perspective of innocent errors if there has been one error that has caused thousands of votes to move, there could be others. It's unlikely, but not inconceivable. We would have to be talking about a lot of error, but there seems to be quite a lot of evidence that people are systemically struggling to follow proper process with the machines. The odds are low, but hopefully we can get it confirmed one way or the other. If nothing else, maybe it will shift a few things around down ballot?

No, it really doesn't. An error that is detected and corrected at the time is practically by definition an error that doesn't count, in that it literally doesn't count.
Any error that I am able to evidence now is by definition one that has been found, and hence the totals corrected. We have already had one such error that was corrected after making it all the way to an incorrect announcement of a down ballot winner. These errors are being caught be humans looking at the result and saying "that can't be right". You surely aren't asking me to list errors that have not yet been found? I can't, they haven't been found yet. There may well be some, the only question is whether they effect 50 votes or 50,000. Clearly 50 votes is rather more likely.

And of Trump's lawyers presented that as evidence of tens of thousands of stolen votes, the judge would give it as much attention as your "voting frauds have been detected in other countries under other systems therefore they may have gone undetected in this country" argument.
I'm not at all sure that the intended audience for much of this is exclusively a judge. In any case, given that these errors were found by human checking, the only way I can see to find other such errors would be human checking. Back in 1960 Nixon had to organize his own audit to get the necessary political will to order for an official audit. He seems to have managed to get that in one state. If that produces nothing significant, I would think he's sunk unless he can get more recounts going first.

One thing that occurred to me is that in the Nixon case that I've been boring everybody with, the only reason he was able to get a recount was that a down ballot ticket in one county was within the margin for a recount and they were able to show significant errors in that race, hence he piggy backed off that. I don't know if Trump can do that here, but given that people were asking "why would they not cheat on the other races", that's at least one reason.

Trump will, of course, say all that, but there is literally nothing Trump would not say if he thought it would suit his purpose.
Sure. He's clearly pushing the truth pretty hard at the moment.

The courts have so far very properly asked the plaintiffs to supply evidence of significant fraud, and in its absence have very politely stopped short of telling them to **** right off, and simply declined even to hear the suit.
All that is fine. Again, just like Nixon... part of the battle I think is getting the political/public will together for recounts and audits. Trump does like to keep a lot of plates spinning in the air at once. There is going to be a lot of smashed crockery before this is over.
 
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And the courts don't work like that either. They don't bother drawing themselves into interminable logic-chopping as to whether something that happened somewhere at some time implies that it may or may not be possible that something else happened somewhere else at some other time. They simply ask, "What specific allegations are you making, and what evidence do you have to support them?" And when the allegations are vague and the evidence is pathetic, they tell the plaintiffs to stop wasting their time. So far, that's happened in every case of alleged election fraud, and if it continues to happen then nothing will change.
Sure, but lots of the claims you would only really be able to evidence with an audit. We'll see. Even if there was enough fraud to tip the election, it doesn't bother me to the point I wouldn't accept the result after inauguration day.
 
The idea that Trump is interacting with the truth in any way whatsoever at the moment is an utter absurdity.
Even his all caps tweet had some kind of basis. He was not accurately conveying the reliability of the data and had turned it up to 11, but he hadn't made it up.
 
You're kidding? Right? All Trump has to do is to instruct his paid lawyers to cease and desist. The lawsuits are being pursued on his behalf.
But he’s not instructing these lawyers, he isn’t a plaintiff in these cases, he’s not the client, he’s not responsible for paying them. Would they all stop if he said so? I bet the vast majority would but some probably wouldn’t given the many nutters there are in the USA!
 
Darat, you are emotionally invested in this and are applying a standard of evidence that you wouldn't ask for elsewhere. I am not arguing that anything like the UK case took place in any particular precinct. All I am saying is that rejecting the idea that it could happen when it has happened in other places and demanding knowledge that only an election official in the specific precinct would have effectively takes this discussion outside the realms of what can be had on a forum like this. Somehow we manage to discuss other topics and muddle through our ignorance there, but not this one?

This is rich. You are quite literally using examples of failed conspiracies as evidence that maybe a far larger and much more complex conspiracy might have both occurred and succeeded. Is this really the standard of evidence you use anywhere that you aren't emotionally invested in?

It is a big topic, and one can't be an expert on everything.

In this thread, it is quite clear that you are not an expert on anything being discussed. You often admit you don't understand claims from your own side or the explanations of why they are wrong from the people who clearly know far more about the subject than you do. Don't make not understanding what you are talking about into some sort of virtue. It's not.


As is often the case on the forum new material is appearing, counter evidence to things that appeared established comes to light and people make errors and misremember things. If you look I have been the one providing the primary sources to the thread and listening to 2 hour interrogation recordings. What have you done in terms of research and contributing to the thread that makes you think you are in a position to throw your weight around? You guys are taking the approach of the Monty Python Argument sketch and are automatic gainsaying anything that is suggested that lends any degree of credence to Trumps claims. I don't understand the attitude.

Primary sources? Like Project Veritas reporting that someone else said something? Or Rudy Giuliani saying that 30, no 50, no 60, maybe even 70 other people said something but he won't let you read what they said? Those aren't primary sources.
 
Small scale fraud can work.

Conspiracies really do happen and sometimes they are successful, but they have to involve very small numbers of people.
It depends on the community you are doing it in. Many communities know perfectly well who the criminals are and don't talk, or actively lie about it.
 
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