Allegations of Fraud in 2020 US Election

[ChrisBFRPKY]

There is so much angst about massive voter fraud yet they have yet to produce evidence of massive voter fraud. We get nothing but examples of insignificant dribbles here and there, almost always cases of less than 100 votes here and there out of millions that have been cast and almost always in small, local elections. Yet, to hear them tell it, we're at the mercy of organized, corrupt political gangs stealing our elections and putting our very democracy in dire peril. Cue the Perils of Pauline piano music.

I agree. I think everyone should wait and see what the Georgia hand count looks like before committing themselves one way or the other.

Same goes for Michigan and other states where allegations have been reported. If there were more computer "glitches" that happened statewide or in multiple states it will become apparent during the recount.

This is what happens when you loosen the security within elections.

 

[dirtywick]

I agree. I think everyone should wait and see what the Georgia hand count looks like before committing themselves one way or the other.

Same goes for Michigan and other states where allegations have been reported. If there were more computer "glitches" that happened statewide or in multiple states it will become apparent during the recount.

This is what happens when you loosen the security within elections.

I don't, I think the win was decisive enough to call it won until proven otherwise ,and judging the "voter fraud" that has been presented so far I don't feel like there's anything convincing forthcoming.

 

[johnny karate]

Exactly.

Also, what excludes driving above the speed limit from happening on a larger scale is the lack of evidence that driving above the speed limit is happening on a larger scale. Until you get caught, it never happens.......

Something like 40 million speeding tickets are issued in the U.S. each year.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree. I think everyone should wait and see what the Georgia hand count looks like before committing themselves one way or the other.

Same goes for Michigan and other states where allegations have been reported. If there were more computer "glitches" that happened statewide or in multiple states it will become apparent during the recount.

This is what happens when you loosen the security within elections.

Absolute nonsense. There is a 150,000 vote difference in Michigan and 53,000 vote difference in Pennsylvania. You could flip Georgia and Arizona and Trump would still lose. And no State wide election recount has made more than an about 300 vote difference and Trump is down 12K and 14K in AZ and Georgia respectively.

Time to move on. The election is over Trump lost. Move on...Get over it. Come back in 4 years.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I have some concerns about the way watchers of absentee ballots have been handled in Pennsylvania. This is most recently brought up again in a case filed today in Donald J. Trump for President, Inc. et al v Bookvar et al.

In the complaint I find a number of the arguments absurd and find the argument that the voting practices in Pennsylvania violate the equal protection clause of the Constitution to be unconvincing. I am also not certain that there is a valid legal case.

However, I do think that the way watchers of absentee ballots have been handled in Pennsylvania is against the spirit and intent of the law.

Watchers at the polls are not permitted within 6 feet of the voting machines or ballot boxes, although they are required to have clear view of the machines. But they are allowed in the area where voters are checked in before being allowed into the voting area where the watchers could report or challenge a person’s eligibility to vote.

For watching the processing of absentee ballots, the law only requires that watchers be present. Those watchers can challenge any ballot. But when the watchers are six feet away and there are tables six feet beyond that and another six feet again beyond that, it is not possible for watchers to observe and make the same types of challenges that would be possible at the polls.

The whole purpose of the watchers at the absentee ballot processing is to be able to observe and object to the validity of any ballot. They should be able to see the ballots to determine that the ballot is cast by the deceased Joe Frazier or it is an invalid naked ballot or it lacks the required signature or is postmarked after the deadline. Having watchers so far away that they cannot see any of that information makes it impossible to make a determination that a ballot should be or even could be challenged. It makes it impossible for the watchers to be able to do what they are, in part, there to do.

In a legal sense, I don’t see any Constitutional violation. There may be an issue of congressional intent, but I’m not sure that a federal court would have jurisdiction to interpret the intent of a state legislature in this case. It really should be going through a State court.

Regardless of the legal issues, I do think that watchers should be allowed by some means to be able to review the information of absentee ballots so that they can make a determination of whether a ballot should be challenged in order to preserve the integrity and confidence in Pennsylvania elections.

 

[Bob001]

....
Same goes for Michigan and other states where allegations have been reported. If there were more computer "glitches" that happened statewide or in multiple states it will become apparent during the recount.

This is what happens when you loosen the security within elections.

The only allegations in Michigan are from butt-hurt Trumpers. There has been no proof of "loosened security" in the election apparatus.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...073d7a-2447-11eb-a688-5298ad5d580a_story.html

 

[acbytesla]

I have some concerns about the way watchers of absentee ballots have been handled in Pennsylvania. This is most recently brought up again in a case filed today in Donald J. Trump for President, Inc. et al v Bookvar et al.

In the complaint I find a number of the arguments absurd and find the argument that the voting practices in Pennsylvania violate the equal protection clause of the Constitution to be unconvincing. I am also not certain that there is a valid legal case.

However, I do think that the way watchers of absentee ballots have been handled in Pennsylvania is against the spirit and intent of the law.

Watchers at the polls are not permitted within 6 feet of the voting machines or ballot boxes, although they are required to have clear view of the machines. But they are allowed in the area where voters are checked in before being allowed into the voting area where the watchers could report or challenge a person’s eligibility to vote.

For watching the processing of absentee ballots, the law only requires that watchers be present. Those watchers can challenge any ballot. But when the watchers are six feet away and there are tables six feet beyond that and another six feet again beyond that, it is not possible for watchers to observe and make the same types of challenges that would be possible at the polls.

The whole purpose of the watchers at the absentee ballot processing is to be able to observe and object to the validity of any ballot. They should be able to see the ballots to determine that the ballot is cast by the deceased Joe Frazier or it is an invalid naked ballot or it lacks the required signature or is postmarked after the deadline. Having watchers so far away that they cannot see any of that information makes it impossible to make a determination that a ballot should be or even could be challenged. It makes it impossible for the watchers to be able to do what they are, in part, there to do.

In a legal sense, I don’t see any Constitutional violation. There may be an issue of congressional intent, but I’m not sure that a federal court would have jurisdiction to interpret the intent of a state legislature in this case. It really should be going through a State court.

Regardless of the legal issues, I do think that watchers should be allowed by some means to be able to review the information of absentee ballots so that they can make a determination of whether a ballot should be challenged in order to preserve the integrity and confidence in Pennsylvania elections.

I don't disagree with this. That said, these conditions were pretty much the norm in the rural counties not just the urban ones. I'd also bet that this was kind of the norm in every state given the COVID precautions.

 

[smartcooky]

This article from August should be noted.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...ngly-oversimplifies-voter-fraud-idUSKCN2512B2

Some highlights:

1) Faking a mail-in ballot is actually more tricky than folks imply, and involves a few felonies along the way.

2) Fake Mail ballots are extremely rare.

3) stricter Mail ballot standards are more often used to disenfranchise minority voters than provide actual security.

- Limiting the number of ballot drop off places
- Limiting the number of polling places
- Mass culling of registered voters
- Gerrymandering of district boundaries
- Requiring an official street address for registered voters

Along with your No 3, are the only real, widespread voter fraud that has taken place, and it all happened before the election, perpetrated almost exclusively Republicans, and in full view of the public.

There is a better way to run national elections, we do it here, and we have 99.99+% election security. If you vote twice under the same name, you WILL be caught. I could explain it, but that would be a topic for another thread.

 

[surrogate]

Can anyone come up with a plausible scenario where multiple thousands of fraudulent votes are cast?

A> Does a nefarious actor(s) illegally procure thousands of absentee ballots in the hope that none of the intended recipients notice or care that their ballots haven't arrived, and none of them happen to show up for in person voting?

Or is it

B> Poll workers/officials changing/altering ballots or tabulated counts? Surely, this sort of fraud would be easy to detect upon further examination, would it not? It seems like a big risk with a low potential for success to me.

Or perhaps,

C> People voting multiple times using disguises as Trump once suggested.

 

[Elagabalus]

Ah, **** this ******!! Your boy lost! Get over it! Start a protest on inauguration day.*


*Like the Dems did in 2016.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Something like 40 million speeding tickets are issued in the U.S. each year.

I didn't get one. And since there's no evidence to the contrary I guess that means I never went above the posted speed limit ever. Hurray!

All jokes aside. I think everyone will rest easier once the facts about the vote count are revealed. If there is no significant manipulation of the vote in any of the swing states then all is well with the American election system. I just hope we can determine why some states are still counting votes more than a week after election day and are not called by now.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

The only allegations in Michigan are from butt-hurt Trumpers. There has been no proof of "loosened security" in the election apparatus.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...073d7a-2447-11eb-a688-5298ad5d580a_story.html

Mail in ballots. Hello........

 

[Bob001]

Mail in ballots. Hello........

What makes you think mail ballots are a security problem? Every state has allowed mail-in voting, some as far back as the Civil War. Five states conduct their elections entirely by mail. Where's your evidence? Oh, I remember: the fact that there is no evidence of fraud proves it, right?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-vote-by-mail-explainer-idUSKBN2482SA
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mail-in-ballot-voter-fraud/

 

[Elagabalus]

I didn't get one. And since there's no evidence to the contrary I guess that means I never went above the posted speed limit ever. Hurray!

All jokes aside. I think everyone will rest easier once the facts about the vote count are revealed. If there is no significant manipulation of the vote in any of the swing states then all is well with the American election system. I just hope we can determine why some states are still counting votes more than a week after election day and are not called by now.

Nice try.

 

[acbytesla]

What makes you think mail ballots are a security problem? Every state has allowed mail-in voting, some as far back as the Civil War. Five states conduct their elections entirely by mail. Where's your evidence? Oh, I remember: the fact that there is no evidence of fraud proves it, right?

I trust mail in ballots over voting machines. There is a much better paper trail and the security measues are in fact very good. Washington State is entirely vote by Mail and has been for 15 years. It has run flawlessly all that time. Oregon is too.

Trump and now Chris's repetition that there is something wrong with vote by mail is ridiculously dishonest.

The biggest problem with vote by mail was caused by Trump and his Postmaster General.


This link shows the facts about Vote by Mail.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/mail-ballot-security-features-primer

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Can anyone come up with a plausible scenario where multiple thousands of fraudulent votes are cast?

A> Does a nefarious actor(s) illegally procure thousands of absentee ballots in the hope that none of the intended recipients notice or care that their ballots haven't arrived, and none of them happen to show up for in person voting?

Or is it

B> Poll workers/officials changing/altering ballots or tabulated counts? Surely, this sort of fraud would be easy to detect upon further examination, would it not? It seems like a big risk with a low potential for success to me.

Or perhaps,

C> People voting multiple times using disguises as Trump once suggested.

The possibilities of placing a thumb on the scale are much greater with a mail in ballot system.

First you have to have a group of individuals who are motivated to take the risk of tampering with the election.

Once you have a team put together you begin collecting ballots.
1. Some ballots may be collected by placing fake ballot box drop offs. Some can be collected thru insiders (your guys) working at the USPS. I'd work out a drop off location for the USPS worker to dump ballots then have one member go pick them up. Could be a dumpster in a city or a rural location if outside a major population center.
2. Some can be stolen from mail boxes.
3. Set up teams to go into retirement homes for the elderly, help those people vote in some cases in others just collect their ballots and fill them out how you please.
4. A few individuals can be tasked with identifying the deceased voters that are still registered and request a ballot for them.
5. Names and dates of birth/death can be found at any cemetery. The dead can still request ballots and or vote long after being in the ground.
6. Mass produce counterfeit ballots, enter the names and birthdates of deceased voters. Fill them out though one could understand that this would be labor intensive and therefore limit the completion of ballots to just a check in the box for one candidate only. This is also safer than requesting a ballot thru the mail.
7. Poll workers. You'd need to recruit poll workers or place members of your team in key positions during the ballot counting process. Those members could weed out the unwanted votes by spoiling the ballots in some way.
8. Multiple ballots received in the mailbox. People that received multiple ballots from the individuals that previously resided at that address could fill out those ballots and mail them in. Who'd know?

Those are just a few off the top of my head. When voting occurs in other ways besides in person it's easy to cheat. There's literally no risk of getting caught.

 

[Meadmaker]

The possibilities of placing a thumb on the scale are much greater with a mail in ballot system.

First you have to have a group of individuals who are motivated to take the risk of tampering with the election.

Once you have a team put together you begin collecting ballots.
1. Some ballots may be collected by placing fake ballot box drop offs. Some can be collected thru insiders (your guys) working at the USPS. I'd work out a drop off location for the USPS worker to dump ballots then have one member go pick them up. Could be a dumpster in a city or a rural location if outside a major population center.
2. Some can be stolen from mail boxes.
3. Set up teams to go into retirement homes for the elderly, help those people vote in some cases in others just collect their ballots and fill them out how you please.
4. A few individuals can be tasked with identifying the deceased voters that are still registered and request a ballot for them.
5. Names and dates of birth/death can be found at any cemetery. The dead can still request ballots and or vote long after being in the ground.
6. Mass produce counterfeit ballots, enter the names and birthdates of deceased voters. Fill them out though one could understand that this would be labor intensive and therefore limit the completion of ballots to just a check in the box for one candidate only. This is also safer than requesting a ballot thru the mail.
7. Poll workers. You'd need to recruit poll workers or place members of your team in key positions during the ballot counting process. Those members could weed out the unwanted votes by spoiling the ballots in some way.
8. Multiple ballots received in the mailbox. People that received multiple ballots from the individuals that previously resided at that address could fill out those ballots and mail them in. Who'd know?

Those are just a few off the top of my head. When voting occurs in other ways besides in person it's easy to cheat. There's literally no risk of getting caught.

I just wish I had the skills to pull that off on a scale big enough to turn 0.5% of the vote in just the states I need.


My father was a big conspiracy theorist. I wasn't as much but when I was young of course I knew that one guy didn't kill Jack Kennedy, and the CIA was up to all sorts of dirty tricks. Education killed off a lot of those beliefs, but the final straw was when I went to work at Hughes Aircraft Company and got one of those special clearances. It was just enough to dip my toe into the world of military intelligence. No James Bond stuff or anything like that, but I think a Russian spy tried to seduce me once. (Really) Anyway...the point of this....I got a chance to look around and see that generals were just people, and that the intelligence community consisted of a bunch of office workers, and that they just didn't have the competence to coordinate that sort of thing.

I fancy myself a competent project manager, and I think if I were desperate, I might be able to pull off one or two of those to the tune of a couple of hundred votes, tops. If I had to hire 1,000 people to pull off 200 votes each, there's no way I could do that without getting caught.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Meadmaker, Some states like Florida have been won or lost by 537 votes (2000 election). Heck I could do that many myself without any help from anyone. I'm just one guy.

 

[Elagabalus]

The possibilities of placing a thumb on the scale are much greater with a mail in ballot system.

First you have to have a group of individuals who are motivated to take the risk of tampering with the election.

Once you have a team put together you begin collecting ballots.
1. Some ballots may be collected by placing fake ballot box drop offs. Some can be collected thru insiders (your guys) working at the USPS. I'd work out a drop off location for the USPS worker to dump ballots then have one member go pick them up. Could be a dumpster in a city or a rural location if outside a major population center.
2. Some can be stolen from mail boxes.
3. Set up teams to go into retirement homes for the elderly, help those people vote in some cases in others just collect their ballots and fill them out how you please.
4. A few individuals can be tasked with identifying the deceased voters that are still registered and request a ballot for them.
5. Names and dates of birth/death can be found at any cemetery. The dead can still request ballots and or vote long after being in the ground.
6. Mass produce counterfeit ballots, enter the names and birthdates of deceased voters. Fill them out though one could understand that this would be labor intensive and therefore limit the completion of ballots to just a check in the box for one candidate only. This is also safer than requesting a ballot thru the mail.
7. Poll workers. You'd need to recruit poll workers or place members of your team in key positions during the ballot counting process. Those members could weed out the unwanted votes by spoiling the ballots in some way.
8. Multiple ballots received in the mailbox. People that received multiple ballots from the individuals that previously resided at that address could fill out those ballots and mail them in. Who'd know?

Those are just a few off the top of my head. When voting occurs in other ways besides in person it's easy to cheat. There's literally no risk of getting caught.

 

[The Atheist]

I just wish I had the skills to pull that off on a scale big enough to turn 0.5% of the vote in just the states I need.

Not just pulling it off, but keeping it under wraps, leaving not a single piece of evidence. Not one! Brilliant planning and execution.

It does show how much the Trumpets hate losing.

Which makes it all the sweeter!