Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VIII

[bknight]

Bob shows up here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279669&page=42

IIRC, he claims 4 shots from 2 shooters or two shooters fired simultaneously to make it appear as one hit, or something like that.

Here Bob talks about 285:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10738540&postcount=1723

Jay explains Bob:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10781713#post10781713

It is no wonder why he got beat up around here. Does he realize that the bullets travel faster than the sound waves generated by the bullets?

 

[Hans]

Okay let me fan the flames a bit. What was the most seriously stupid and irrational CT that was ever presented, and worse yet, believed by far too many people?

 

[Meadmaker]

Okay let me fan the flames a bit. What was the most seriously stupid and irrational CT that was ever presented, and worse yet, believed by far too many people?

The international Jewish conspiracy theory, I would guess, especially on the "believed by far too many people" count.

 

[HSienzant]

Okay let me fan the flames a bit. What was the most seriously stupid and irrational CT that was ever presented, and worse yet, believed by far too many people?

JFK body alteration by David Lifton.

Hank

 

[Hans]

JFK body alteration by David Lifton.

Hank

Oh yeah the body snatchers and lost brain one! That was steeped in idiocy. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[Meadmaker]

Okay let me fan the flames a bit. What was the most seriously stupid and irrational CT that was ever presented, and worse yet, believed by far too many people?

I wonder if I misinterpreted the question. Did you mean the specific sub-theory within the sphere of Kennedy assassination CT's?

It's so hard to judge because it's so hard to see how many people actually believe any particular conspiracy theory. A typical CT believer seems to throw out every variation all at once, despite the numerous contradictions inherent in them. As for the people who push those theories, it's so hard to say whether they even really believe it themselves. Some of them are just clearly trying to cash in on a sucker's market.

That being said, I think the body alteration one is hard to top. It appears that some people sincerely believe it, possibly including Lifton himself.

The Clay Shaw one is also pretty nutty, and that one got all the way to a jury. not to mention being the centerpiece of a zillion dollar movie with a big name movie star. There's just no evidence of any connection whatsoever to the assassination.

 

[Axxman300]

Okay let me fan the flames a bit. What was the most seriously stupid and irrational CT that was ever presented, and worse yet, believed by far too many people?

My vote was the "Fake Oswald Body Double":

n 1975, he self-published Khrushchev Killed Kennedy, in which he alleged that a “look-alike” Soviet agent had killed Kennedy, not Oswald. Eddowes believed the KGB had trained a body-double named Alec to assume Oswald’s identity. This agent met the young Marina Prusakova at a dance in Minsk, married her six weeks later, and returned to America in 1962 with his wife and infant daughter. He was such a dead ringer for Oswald, “Alec” was able to fool Oswald’s own mother.

His mission: Blend in, wait for the right moment, kill the president, and die in the chaos that followed.

Evidence of the switch? Eddowes lists several specific “inconsistencies” between Oswald’s Marine Corps medical records and his autopsy report. Eddowes proposed that Oswald’s body should be exhumed to prove that the man buried in Fort Worth’s Rose Hill Cemetery was not Oswald but his doppelganger Soviet substitute, Alec.

Source: https://narratively.com/digging-up-lee-harvey-oswald/

They actually dug to poor guy up to confirm that it was Lee Oswald.

Spoiler Alert: It Was.

 

[Elagabalus]

JFK body alteration by David Lifton.

Hank

Back a few months ago when you guys forced me to get back into this,

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13104190#post13104190

my brother* made a startling admission. He had once had dinner with some JFK conspiracy guy. Quickly I rattled off some names. "No, no, those don't sound right" he replied furrowing his brow. "It was ... David something."

"David Lifton!" I yelled! "Dude you hit the big time. Why didn't you tell me this before! Just think of all the street cred that I would get on the JFK Conspiracies Theories Forum! I could have been a contender!"


*autographs available upon request. That's my brother's autograph not Lifton's.

 

[pgwenthold]

Okay let me fan the flames a bit. What was the most seriously stupid and irrational CT that was ever presented, and worse yet, believed by far too many people?

I'm still going with the guy who gave me a little slip of paper when I was in DC that claimed that Jackie did it with a gun hidden in a stuffed white dog.

 

[pgwenthold]

JFK body alteration by David Lifton.

Hank

I started reading Best Evidence but didn't get far after the part of trying to interpret all the smudges in every photo as a shooter, so I never even got to the body alteration part.

 

[HSienzant]

I started reading Best Evidence but didn't get far after the part of trying to interpret all the smudges in every photo as a shooter, so I never even got to the body alteration part.

But it got so many five star reviews on Amazon, so it must be true!

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Evidenc...erType=all_reviews&pageNumber=1&sortBy=recent

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

I started reading Best Evidence but didn't get far after the part of trying to interpret all the smudges in every photo as a shooter, so I never even got to the body alteration part.

Lifton talks about analyzing the grainy Zapruder film photos published in LIFE magazine to determine if there was evidence of a second shooter that could be gleaned from the reactions of the victims. He thought he saw something in the way Governor Connally's shoulder was driven down during the shooting, and of course, he thought the President's backward head snap was evidence of a shot from the right front. He didn't seem troubled by the fact that the President and Governor weren't thrown in any direction by the other bullet that struck both men.

But it occurs to me you may be talking about references to Ray Marcus, an early critic of the Warren Commission whom Lifton was acquainted with and whom Lifton mentions several times in his BEST EVIDENCE book.

Marcus would try to analyze photo reproductions if that was all he could get his hands on, rather than stick with first generation photographs as source material. Marcus admitted he had no expertise in photoanalysis or any of the subjects he opined on in his testimony to the New Orleans Grand Jury^[1], but he blew-up and analyzed grainy newsprint photos regardless. This led to some rather comic incidents, not covered in Lifton's book, but noted here in an article on John McAdams website:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/toobig.htm

One of the best stories is told by Bill Gurvich who worked for Jim Garrison before quitting: "He (Raymond Marcus) came in the office and he had some large blowups of what he said was the picket fence area in Dallas, in Dealey Plaza. And these photographs would support what Garrison was saying about multiple assassins. Behind the fence. Behind the wall. So these photographs had been enlarged so many times that they looked like a checkerboard - they were black and white squares. Which was a printer's screen, enlarged. You couldn't distinguish anything. I joked with them when they showed it to me, and I said it looked like a Purina checkerboard sign." ^[99] _______
⁹⁹. American Grotesque, pp. 536. Ultimately, Marcus took the photo out onto the street so that they could look at the photo from the window. That didn't help, either!​

Hank
_______________________
¹ https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/garr/grandjury/pdf/Marcus.pdf
"We are talking about photographic evidence and I am not a photographer. And I am talking about ballistics ... and I am not a ballistician."

 

[HSienzant]

My vote was the "Fake Oswald Body Double":



Source: https://narratively.com/digging-up-lee-harvey-oswald/

They actually dug to poor guy up to confirm that it was Lee Oswald.

Spoiler Alert: It Was.

Yeah, that's a good one too.

It got its start because like in any well publicized incident, people convince themselves they saw that guy somewhere, and come forward and report it. So we have a whole slew of Elvis sightings, for example, after the death of Elvis. And so it was for Oswald. After he was arrested for shooting JFK, his image was on TV and in newspapers worldwide. And well-meaning people came forward to claim, "Yeah, I saw Oswald". But in most cases, it couldn't have been Oswald because he was known to be elsewhere. Like he was reported to be buying trucks in the US when he was actually in Russia at the time. Or taking a test drive when he supposedly didn't drive.

Those reports were dutifully recorded by the FBI and many of them were published in the Warren Commission volumes. And that was pretty much the end of it, but some of the earliest critics (like Harold Weisberg) devoted a bit of space to these "mysterious" sightings. Then one critic decided there was a book in those mistaken identity reports and that became:

The Second Oswald by Richard Popkin:
https://www.amazon.com/SECOND-Startling-Alternative-Assassin-Commission/dp/B000J0VUL4

And that led to the book you reference (and the actual digging up of Oswald's body to confirm it was him):
The Oswald File by Michael Eddowes:
https://www.amazon.com/Oswald-File-Michael-Eddowes/dp/0517530554

And this book which utilized almost every document referencing Oswald to argue for two Oswalds from an early age (and two different women as Oswald's mother, as well!):
Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong
https://www.amazon.com/Harvey-Lee-John-Armstrong/dp/0974509701

And then this Johnny-come-lately:
Doppleganger by George Schwimmer
https://www.amazon.com/DOPPELGANGER-Legend-Lee-Harvey-Oswald/dp/1530364981

This is apparently a little cottage industry within the JFK assassination conspiracy genre. There may be more Oswald sightings to mine, so look for more books on this subject at a book store seller near you.

John McAdams website gives some more information on this here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/2oswalds.htm

Hank

 

[TahiniBinShawarma]

Okay let me fan the flames a bit. What was the most seriously stupid and irrational CT that was ever presented, and worse yet, believed by far too many people?

I'm gonna have to go with John Armstrong's there was a CIA program that had 2 Lee Oswalds, and 2 Marguerites. One set American and one set Russian speaking immigrants.

 

[pgwenthold]

But it occurs to me you may be talking about references to Ray Marcus, an early critic of the Warren Commission whom Lifton was acquainted with and whom Lifton mentions several times in his BEST EVIDENCE book. [/url]

All I remember is that Lifton talked about it in early chapters in his book, and I couldn't take it seriously by that point. Badge man and crap like that.

 

[HSienzant]

All I remember is that Lifton talked about it in early chapters in his book, and I couldn't take it seriously by that point. Badge man and crap like that.

Ray Marcus was fixated on the head snap and the grassy knoll as the source of the shot that drove JFK backwards from very early on. He was responsible for blowing up photos of the fence line from copies of the Moorman photo and claiming a shooter was visible in those photos. It may be that you're recalling. However, there's no reference to Badgeman in Lifton's name index or subject index.

Hank

 

[bknight]

Ray Marcus was fixated on the head snap and the grassy knoll as the source of the shot that drove JFK backwards from very early on. He was responsible for blowing up photos of the fence line from copies of the Moorman photo and claiming a shooter was visible in those photos. It may be that you're recalling. However, there's no reference to Badgeman in Lifton's name index or subject index.

Hank

I remember viewing the grainy shot from the Moorman and could not see anyone in the image. It was all hocus pocus.

 

[HSienzant]

The New York Football Giants have launched a "Giant Hero" program.

https://view.email.nygfootball.net/...79a58eff2b6d8bd79ec3fab3d3cc20fc848c624f4b78e

Should I nominate Lee Harvey Oswald? Some people think he brought a "Giant Hero" three foot long sandwich to the Depository in that paper sack, instead of his rifle.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

The New York Football Giants have launched a "Giant Hero" program.

https://view.email.nygfootball.net/...79a58eff2b6d8bd79ec3fab3d3cc20fc848c624f4b78e

Should I nominate Lee Harvey Oswald? Some people think he brought a "Giant Hero" three foot long sandwich to the Depository in that paper sack, instead of his rifle.

Hank

A sandwich that he spent the entire morning eating, and it made him sick so he left work early because nobody wants to use the work men's room when you have diarrhea. This forced him to take the taxi after the bus was caught in traffic. The toilet at the rooming house must have been clogged thus explaining why he left the house to go downtown to search for a restroom. Obviously he couldn't hold it and snuck into the movie theater to use the men's room. He stayed because he knew he'd have to use it again soon.

I hereby copyright "The Sandwich Theory" and my e-book will be available soon on Amazon.

 

[Axxman300]

Today is the anniversary of the coup and assassination of Diem in Vietnam. It's important because it drove the US involvement deeper into Vietnam's civil war, and it is relevant to the JFK assassination CT's because they are ALL founded upon the myth that JFK hated the CIA, and wanted to smash it into little pieces.

The truth is that JFK expanded the CIA's reach beyond its charter.

The National Security Archives just released a report along with the original, newly declassified documents from the JFK NSC which show that JFK was directly involved in the decision to launch and back a coup than previously stated.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...tent&eId=d028c305-87ec-4e63-b938-6e40ae0d7697

*President John F. Kennedy was more disposed, than previously understood, to support actions that might change the leadership in South Vietnam.

*Kennedy was personally aware of the pro-Diem views of Frederick E. Nolting, Lodge’s predecessor as ambassador, strengthening the impression that he included Nolting in White House deliberations—and personally engaged him in colloquy about Saigon events—partly to build a case that all sides in this debate had been heard.

*White House conversations took place without any principal figures changing their minds about the Saigon situation.

*When South Vietnamese military officers renewed their contacts with CIA operatives in early October, the Vietnamese immediately raised the option of assassination.

*Vietnamese figure Ngo Dinh Nhu, brother of leader Diem, remained the prime target of American maneuvers. Nhu’s attempts to fend off criticism or ingratiate himself with Washington failed.

The report details RFK's opposition to the coup.

The other reason I'm posting this is that THIS WHAT A REAL ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY LOOKS LIKE. The Diem assassination has been fully and accurately revealed since the late 1960s in the press with witnesses and agents speaking on the record about what happened long before the first documents were declassified.

Unlike the JFK assassination CTs, the story never changed, the facts never changed, and with each new declassified document the story only became more solid.