Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Is it, like Rolfe said, and like I have occasionally seen among trans women, dressing and behaving like a guy's caricature of a woman?
Many transwomen dress stereotypically feminine because they want to clearly communicate they are transitioning. Transitioning while wearing jeans and t-shirts doesn't necessarily convince people that one is serious about their new gender role. Transwomen have to walk a fine line between being perceived as a man and being perceived as a caricature of a woman.

How about we just treat them like a human?
That's even better. It does mean getting rid of segregationist policies though.

The problem with this, as I see it... is that while that gender-stereotype line might be good for transgender people... It's bad for cisgender people, both men and women.
It's bad for everyone, but especially bad for transgender people.

If gender didn't matter to this discussion, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Nobody says, "I should be admitted to women's locker rooms because I'm a human being."
If gender didn't matter, there wouldn't be a "women's locker room". There would be "human being's locker rooms".

And if transwomen are choosing outfits and makeup on purpose to code as women, how does treating them in a gender-neutral way actually respect their gender identity?
If you treat everyone in a gender neutral way, it would be perfectly respectful of their gender identity. If you treat only them in a gender neutral way, it would be less respectful of their gender identity.
 
If gender didn't matter, there wouldn't be a "women's locker room". There would be "human being's locker rooms".
I imagine some places and/or services would still be segregated on account of sex (e.g. Whole Women's Health) even if we all somehow managed to overcome gendered norms and expectations. Not sure about locker rooms, but perhaps the squeamishness many people feel about disrobing in front of the opposite sex may not be (entirely) a matter of gendered acculturation. Not sure how to test that, TBH.
 
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Many transwomen dress stereotypically feminine because they want to clearly communicate they are transitioning. Transitioning while wearing jeans and t-shirts doesn't necessarily convince people that one is serious about their new gender role. Transwomen have to walk a fine line between being perceived as a man and being perceived as a caricature of a woman.

That makes sense to me, and initially I was going to say that "living as a girl" included "dressing like a girl", but then I realized that an awful lot things that girls wear, like jeans and t-shirts, weren't really "dressing like a girl", so people could say that if that's how she dressed, she wasn't really living like a girl. When all was said and done, I know that I have an idea what "dressing like a girl" means, but actually putting that into practice, and especially into policy, becomes problematic.


As far as the caricature, I use an example someone I cited about a year ago after encountering her at a game convention. The person in question had a tall, bulky, body, muscular but somewhat flabby, and a square face, and deep voice. That deep voice was being used to loudly describe her issues that she was having with her stockings (fishnet? I can't recall. Definitely black and made to stand out as opposed to blending in), which were being worn with a leather skirt and sleeveless top that I can't quite describe, but was unquestionably feminine, and some really prominent green eye shadow.

Her clothing was unquestionably female oriented, but the overall presentation, both appearance and behavior, suggested a guy who was attending a Halloween party as the world's ugliest hooker. There was no doubt he was "dressing like a girl", but not like any of the other regular girls who were present.
 
Many transwomen dress stereotypically feminine because they want to clearly communicate they are transitioning. Transitioning while wearing jeans and t-shirts doesn't necessarily convince people that one is serious about their new gender role. Transwomen have to walk a fine line between being perceived as a man and being perceived as a caricature of a woman.

That's even better. It does mean getting rid of segregationist policies though.

It's bad for everyone, but especially bad for transgender people.

If gender didn't matter, there wouldn't be a "women's locker room". There would be "human being's locker rooms".

If you treat everyone in a gender neutral way, it would be perfectly respectful of their gender identity. If you treat only them in a gender neutral way, it would be less respectful of their gender identity.

It takes some precision marksmanship to miss the point so completely.
 
It's bad for everyone, but especially bad for transgender people.

Sure, sure. It's not like gender stereotyping has kept female human beings oppressed for thousands of years - including the present - across pretty much the entire planet. And obviously, it hasn't really had any impact on the ability of half the population to be self-sufficient and independent, and to get paid fairly for their work, or to be represented in politics or leadership roles.

Yep. It's obvious that those oppressive and confining gender stereotypes are especially super bad for transgender people who leverage and reinforce those stereotypes in order to affirm their identities, regardless of whether that reinforcement sets half the population back by several decades. They're totally much worse for the 0.3% of the population who make active use of them to mitigate their emotional and mental distress.
 
:eek: Ran across a link to this...
https://twitter.com/GoodyCorvid/status/1202350726770544640
I don't believe woke men think transwomen are actually women. If they did, they'd treat them with as much contempt for their lived experiences as they treat actual women. Instead it's the deference a bro shows another bro.

Transwoman: I am a women, because I feel like a woman.
Woke Man: Yes, absolutely. I believe you.
Woman: Woman is not a feeling. It's the physical reality of being female.
Woke Man: You are a bigot.
 
I've also run across a few comments to the effect that hormone treatment is "reversible" and therefore safe.

Which is bollocks. Some minor elements of hormonally induced secondary characteristics are dependent on the hormones to continue... like the distribution of fat across the body, and the density of muscle. Some of them are slightly alterable, like bone density.

But if a biological male suppresses testosterone and takes estrogen... the boobs that they grow don't go away when they stop taking estrogen - those babies are permanent. And a biological female who takes testosterone and blocks estrogen will develop facial and body hair that also doesn't go away when they stop treatment.
 
So the way I see it, "living as a girl"* consists of two things: Acting as one thinks girls should act, and being treated as one thinks girls should be treated. But gender stereotypes are increasingly deprecated. There are very few places in society where we can find a clear, binary demarcation between men and women. Very few places where law and custom still firmly uphold the traditional view of sex and gender.

So while there's more to it than just "access to women's spaces", I think that is the predominant factor, by a very large margin.

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The whole question gets really weird, really fast, though. Does living like a girl mean wearing dresses and putting on makeup? But men can wear dresses and put on makeup, too. Nothing wrong with that.

Actually, a lot of communities do frown on men wearing dresses and putting on makeup. This is good for transwomen, because it means there's still a gender-stereotype line that they can cross. On this side, they're living as a man. On that side, they're living as a woman.

But they're not living entirely as a woman. If they're mannish enough, their community is still going to frown on them for cross-dressing. So even though they're acting like a woman, they're not being treated like a woman. Their community needs to treat them like a woman, not like a cross-dressing man. Really, their community needs to stop frowning on male-looking people who wear dresses and put on makeup.

But this then erases the clear gender-stereotype line that the transwoman crosses to achieve their goal of living like a woman. If there's nothing wrong with men wearing dresses and putting on makeup, then there's nothing to be gained in terms of lived gender identity by doing so.

Eliminate all these gender stereotypes, and what's left? Women's locker rooms. Women's sports.



You'd think, wouldn't you, that this ought to be a rather pressing issue which the world's leading experts in psychiatry, psychology and sociology ought to be examining. Surely it's in their collective job description to pool their immense expertise and experience, in order to work out some answers and develop clinical policy and pathways.

Oh wait *pushes earpiece in closer to ear with index finger*, I'm just hearing that this is exactly what they have done. If only we knew the outcomes. More at seven.
 
You'd think, wouldn't you, that this ought to be a rather pressing issue which the world's leading experts in psychiatry, psychology and sociology ought to be examining. Surely it's in their collective job description to pool their immense expertise and experience, in order to work out some answers and develop clinical policy and pathways.
These sarcastic responses would be vastly more persuasive if they had quotes (on point) from the leading experts.
 
Can I just point out given the day?

My pronouns I have chosen are "hunky", "butch", "manly" and "godlike"

Depending on the situation

If you get them wrong I will report you to the mods
 
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