Bill Barr and his October Surprise

shuttlt said:
Of course I'd accept evidence from the email service provider. If we don't accept things like that then we are effectively choosing what to believe on the basis of which side it benefits. That wouldn't make it utterly beyond challenge, but it would be a high bar for Giuliani to get over and my assumption would certainly be that the emails were false. These emails could turn out to be genuine, or not.
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How will the email service provider confirm or deny anything? Do we have the hard drive to examine? The email metadata? Anything other than a screenshot?

And I'll repeat, you didn't accept Wikipedia, any of the various linked articles, or any of the various experts quoted within who told you that Biden, along with almost the rest of the world, pressed for Shokin to be fired because Shokin was not investigating Burisma. Rather, you repeatedly claimed the opposite. What should make me believe you would accept a different source correcting a different false claim about Biden?
 
wareyin said:
How will the email service provider confirm or deny anything? Do we have the hard drive to examine? The email metadata? Anything other than a screenshot?
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It's their email system that the email would have passed through. They know who the email was from, who the email was to, what the subject was and when it was sent. What more information would they need?

wareyin said:
And I'll repeat, you didn't accept Wikipedia, any of the various linked articles, or any of the various experts quoted within who told you that Biden, along with almost the rest of the world, pressed for Shokin to be fired because Shokin was not investigating Burisma. Rather, you repeatedly claimed the opposite.
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Wikipedia doesn't and can't know why Biden pushed for Shokin to be fired. That would be an opinion claim rather than a fact claim.

wareyin said:
What should make me believe you would accept a different source correcting a different false claim about Biden?
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I don't think I am disagreeing with any of the facts in the Wikipedia articles. If Apple said that their logs showed that the email had never arrived on their infrastructure, then that would be a fact claim and, as with the wikipedia article, my default position would be to accept it.
 
shuttlt said:
It's their email system that the email would have passed through. They know who the email was from, who the email was to, what the subject was and when it was sent. What more information would they need?
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Oh, the actual emails have been released? So far as I knew the NY Post/Giuliani had only released one screenshot and several claims but zero actual emails. You know, the info we'd need to verify, the metadata that people keep telling you hasn't been released?


shuttlt said:
IWikipedia doesn't and can't know why Biden pushed for Shokin to be fired. That would be an opinion claim rather than a fact claim.
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Wikipedia directly says the international community pushed for Shokin to be fired for refusing to investigate companies including Burisma. You claim he was fired while/for investigating Burisma. You disagree with the plainly stated facts, as laid out on Wikipedia and sourced in their sources.

shuttlt said:
II don't think I am disagreeing with any of the facts in the Wikipedia articles. If Apple said that their logs showed that the email had never arrived on their infrastructure, then that would be a fact claim and, as with the wikipedia article, my default position would be to accept it.
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See above, you have repeatedly made the claim that Shokin was investigating Burisma, which is in disagreement with what Wikipedia, as well as the international community on record at the time claimed.

Further, what actual emails including the metadata have been released for Apple to investigate?

So far, without Giuliani or the NY Post releasing more than a screenshot and some unverifiable claims, there is nothing to investigate.
 
shuttlt said:
Again, you are misstating this. It's more like you are claiming that Walgreens sent me an email saying they sold me Heroin.

First of all I could safely deny it based on having searched my email and also not being involved in anything relating to Heroin. Then, were there money on the line I could get independent verification that there was no such email evident in my inbox. Since I am nobody of any significance, that is all I could do. Were I Biden though, I could get Walgreen to confirm that they hadn't sent the email. They would almost certainly have their email logged in an auditable way so we could get proof one way or the other. Were I Biden I would also be able to get Apple to confirm if the email had been received.
Maybe they will produce proof like this.

Pretending that what is easy for a campaign spending hundreds of millions of dollars and with institutional support should necessarily be easy for me is feeble.
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Why the **** should he? God could come down from on high and pronounce the emails fake and it wouldn't change one ******* thing. This has nothing to do with the actual facts and everything to do with simply spreading lies because some people, like yourself apparently, suck those lies right up.
This is also why I'm not sure why anyone is engaging in this argument with you.
 
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wareyin said:
Oh, the actual emails have been released? So far as I knew the NY Post/Giuliani had only released one screenshot and several claims but zero actual emails. You know, the info we'd need to verify, the metadata that people keep telling you hasn't been released?
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If you think it's only one email that has been provided, then you haven't been following the story. When I've been involved in data retrieval from email systems for court cases as so forth you typically get the email addresses of the people of interest, keywords or a subject and a date range.

wareyin said:
Wikipedia directly says the international community pushed for Shokin to be fired for refusing to investigate companies including Burisma.
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Yes, and I have neither looked into, nor disputed this. I'm perfectly prepared to believe that people in the EU and US government made statements about thinking this prosecutor was corrupt.

wareyin said:
You claim he was fired while/for investigating Burisma. You disagree with the plainly stated facts, as laid out on Wikipedia and sourced in their sources.
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No. Wikipedia doesn't and can't know what Biden's motivations or the motivations of the Ukrainian government were.

wareyin said:
above, you have repeatedly made the claim that Shokin was investigating Burisma, which is in disagreement with what Wikipedia, as well as the international community on record at the time claimed.
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Wikipedia says the investigation was stalled. I have no opinion about that. Supposedly he was fired for not pushing forward with investigating/prosecuting Burisma and hence Biden got him fired. He was then replaced by a prosecutor who cleared Burisma of wrongdoing.... only for some time later evidence to come to light that caused the oligarch behind Burisma to flee the country. Those facts don't seem to be in dispute, so I'm not sure what we are arguing about.

wareyin said:
Further, what actual emails including the metadata have been released for Apple to investigate?
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I don't think you need metadata to investigate this on the server side. It would be nice, but I don't understand why it would be needed. None of the email retrievals I've been involved with relating to legal cases have required metadata beyond what we have here to locate the emails of interest.

wareyin said:
So far, without Giuliani or the NY Post releasing more than a screenshot and some unverifiable claims, there is nothing to investigate.
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The claims aren't unverifiable. Supposedly Fox has sources confirming one of the emails. Any of the companies involved, and certainly the law firm and the investment fund could locate the emails, if they exist, based on the information provided. Of course, if they do exist and they match the emails Giuliani has shown, then that would implicate them in corruption.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Why the **** should he?
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I didn't say he should. I'm saying it should be easy for him to do if he wants to. As I've said repeatedly, presumably his campaign don't feel it is in his strategic interest to do so. Perhaps as has been suggested on the thread it is because they believe that saying nothing is the best way to kill the story.

Skeptic Ginger said:
God could come down from on high and pronounce the emails fake and it wouldn't change one ******* thing. This has nothing to do with the actual facts and everything to do with simply spreading lies because some people, like yourself apparently, suck those lies right up.
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I disagree with this. Letting Trump gather as much focus on the story as possible only for it to be proved fraudulent would be a terrific way to deflate him going into the election. Having everybody ignore the story feeds into the narrative that the media and the Democrats coordinate with one another, though maybe that is a preferable narrative to feed than the alternatives.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
This is also why I'm not sure why anyone is engaging in this argument with you.
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If people stop attacking me by misstating my position, then all we are talking about is whether based on a list of senders and recipients, subject and a timestamp it is easy or impossible to search for traces of an email on an email server. That that is easy seems like a fairly non-contentious point, so perhaps there is indeed nothing to discuss?
 
shuttlt said:
If you think it's only one email that has been provided, then you haven't been following the story. When I've been involved in data retrieval from email systems for court cases as so forth you typically get the email addresses of the people of interest, keywords or a subject and a date range.
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Please provide a link to the actual emails that have been released, then. Not sources claiming what is in the emails, but the emails themselves.


Just kidding. We both know you can't because they haven't been released.


shuttlt said:
Yes, and I have neither looked into, nor disputed this. I'm perfectly prepared to believe that people in the EU and US government made statements about thinking this prosecutor was corrupt.


No. Wikipedia doesn't and can't know what Biden's motivations or the motivations of the Ukrainian government were.
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Is this obtuseness intentional?


shuttlt said:
Wikipedia says the investigation was stalled. I have no opinion about that. Supposedly he was fired for not pushing forward with investigating/prosecuting Burisma and hence Biden got him fired. He was then replaced by a prosecutor who cleared Burisma of wrongdoing.... only for some time later evidence to come to light that caused the oligarch behind Burisma to flee the country. Those facts don't seem to be in dispute, so I'm not sure what we are arguing about.
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We are agreed that Shokin was not investigating Burisma then? Good, I'm glad you finally accepted that. Unfortunately, if you accept that then you're left with nothing nefarious.

shuttlt said:
I don't think you need metadata to investigate this on the server side. It would be nice, but I don't understand why it would be needed. None of the email retrievals I've been involved with relating to legal cases have required metadata beyond what we have here to locate the emails of interest.


The claims aren't unverifiable. Supposedly Fox has sources confirming one of the emails. Any of the companies involved, and certainly the law firm and the investment fund could locate the emails, if they exist, based on the information provided. Of course, if they do exist and they match the emails Giuliani has shown, then that would implicate them in corruption.
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Of course they're unverifiable. The Post/Giuliani haven't released them. There is nothing to verify without the actual emails. And even if one or more emails are eventually released and verified, that says nothing about the veracity of any claims about any other unreleased emails. Perhaps you have other posters on ignore, but the whole 'mix up real emails with doctored emails and outright false emails' disinformation campaign has been explained already. For Pete's sake, Trump's own people have been telling him that Giuliani is compromised and likely passing on Russian disinformation.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
This is also why I'm not sure why anyone is engaging in this argument with you.
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Yeah, just to talk about this Russian fabricated bogus trash is a kind of a half-victory. Anyway, the major thing is that mainstream media is so far staying away or openly sceptical. Couldn't they have found some else than that corrupt madman Guliani to peddle this excrement?
 
llwyd said:
Yeah, just to talk about this Russian fabricated bogus trash is a kind of a half-victory. Anyway, the major thing is that mainstream media is so far staying away or openly sceptical. Couldn't they have found some else than that corrupt madman Guliani to peddle this excrement?
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As you can see from how QAnon, Obama's birth certificate, all of Trump's constant lies, and this 'excrement' as you aptly call it: we Trump and his cult are in a post-truth world. They can put the most ridiculous crap out there and milk it. Twitter just announced they will no longer block this email fabrication. They claim it was because the NYPost article "could no longer be considered private." But the NYT's take is they are caving to political pressure.

NYT: In Reversal, Twitter Is No Longer Blocking New York Post Article
The rapid-fire changes have made Twitter and Facebook the butt of jokes and invigorated efforts to regulate them. On Friday, Senator Josh Hawley, Republican of Missouri, said he wanted to subpoena Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook’s chief executive, to testify over the “censorship” of the New York Post article since the social network had also reduced the visibility of the piece. Kayleigh McEnany, the White House press secretary, said that Twitter was “against us.” And President Trump shared a satirical article on Twitter that mocked the company’s policies....

A Twitter spokesman confirmed that the company would now allow the link to the New York Post article to be shared because the information had spread across the internet and could no longer be considered private. He declined further comment.
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What a mess.
 
Speaking of Fox, they are happy to spin as much from this as possible. It will soon turn to Russia as the only topic you can keep spinning as news:
Trump in recent days has drawn attention to the new revelations from the Post, something that drew criticism from Schiff.

“The origins of this whole smear are from the Kremlin and the president is only too happy to have Kremlin help in trying to amplify it,” he said Friday on CNN.

The Associated Press reported that the FBI is investigating whether the emails are tied to a foreign influence operation, although the exact scope of what was being investigated was not clear.

Schiff was one of the key figures in both the investigation into allegations about Russian interference in 2016 and the 2019 impeachment hearings, and has a history of making dramatic claims about President Trump’s alleged ties to Russia.

The Wall Street Journal editorial board in May accused Schiff of spreading "falsehoods shamelessly about Russia and Donald Trump for three years even as his own committee gathered contrary evidence."

On Friday, Schiff said that Russia has an "obvious interest" in denigrating Biden and wants Trump to win.

"I think we know who the driving force behind this smear has been all along, it's been the president and the Kremlin," he said, calling him "the gift that doesn't stop giving" for Moscow.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/adam-schiff-hunter-biden-email-kremlin
 
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