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2020 Presidential Election

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Because how people vote, in person on election day, using a ballot drop box, voting by mail, or voting early in person, are not uniform across Democrats and Republicans. That's what will make this so challenging this year. Since all this polling and prediction began, the vast majority of people voted in person on election day. Now, there are lots of ways to vote, but partisans are not equally likely to vote in one way. More Democrats are voting early by various means, so if you ask those people, your poll skews Democratic. If you wait until election day, your poll skews Republican.

The professionals will be making models to try and figure out just how many of each type of voter they ought to ask in order to get the right sample, but that shows just how difficult it is. The "poll" is as good as the pollsters' estimates.

I think you're making it too difficult. The way we use to do it before this became too difficult was stand outside polling places and ask where they live, how old they were, their age, write down their sex ask about their race and who they voted for. And that was it. Unless you can provide a model that says Republicans by a certain percentage vote by mail or in person, I think the sample would be representative enough. Of course I could be wrong.
 
GOP Senator Ben Sasse unloaded on Trump ;daying, among other things, that in private Trump ridicules his evangelical supporters.
I have no problem beleiving this; con men often have contempt for their marks.
 
I'm not sure where you are but here in the US I don't know anyone under the age of 16 that does not have an ID. Everyone has an ID unless they avoid getting one for some reason? Driver's license, Official ID etc.

An ID is required to buy cigarettes or alcohol. Perhaps we should toss those requirements as well so we don't deprive hundreds of thousands of people from obtaining cigarettes and beer?

How many times are you going to make this argument?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12620858
 
if Biden does take Georgia, it would be the biggest thing to hit the state since General Sherman came through...
 
If Biden wins, early in his aminnistration I would call the heads of the CIA, Defense Intelligence Service and the NSA and tell them Basically When it comes to Putin and Russia it's payback time, and to find a way to mess up Putin's internal political standing...without leaving fingerprints, of course.
 
If Biden wins, early in his aminnistration I would call the heads of the CIA, Defense Intelligence Service and the NSA and tell them Basically When it comes to Putin and Russia it's payback time, and to find a way to mess up Putin's internal political standing...without leaving fingerprints, of course.
There are so many other priorities that need to come first.
 
I think you're making it too difficult. The way we use to do it before this became too difficult was stand outside polling places and ask where they live, how old they were, their age, write down their sex ask about their race and who they voted for. And that was it. Unless you can provide a model that says Republicans by a certain percentage vote by mail or in person, I think the sample would be representative enough. Of course I could be wrong.

Let's imagine a scenario. I'll use numbers that would make me happy, but are within the possible results that I've been reading.

Donald Trump is incredibly effective at getting out the vote - for Biden. People flock to the polls in record numbers to vote against Trump. Imagine 150 million votes. I've seen that number projected, so it's not ridiculous. When all the votes are counted, Biden wins by 55% to 45%. 10 points. Actually on the low side of current polls, some of which project up to a 17 point lead.

And why are people motivated to vote against Trump, much more than in 2016? Covid 19. But, that means the people who hate him are more likely to vote by absentee ballot or some other means than interacting with lots of people on election day. Let's imagine that 45% of Democrats vote before election day. 22% or Republicans vote before election day. That would be 52 million total votes before election day. We already have over 20 million early votes, so 50 million before November 3 seems realistic.

On election day, the remaining voters show up at the polls. There are 45.4 million Democrats voting on election day, and 52.7 million Republicans. If you base your exit poll solely on people leaving the polling place, you would get 46.4% for Biden, 53.7% for Trump. If the networks base projections on those numbers, they would have Trump declared the winner early in the evening, only to discover that the real numbers were lopsided the other way. (And Trump would declare massive vote fraud, because roundoff error and the wrong guy won.)

Suppose, instead, that you knew there would be a problem, so you did exit polls of early voters as well. Since you don't know how to do it, you will select 1000 early voters, and 1000 election day voters. You would find that among early voters, 710 voted for Biden, and 290 for Trump. On election day, 463 for Biden, and 537 for Trump. Adding everything up, 1173 for Biden, or 58%. (Again, inconsistent rounding. Close enough) So, Biden is significantly overestimated, because election day and early ballots are give equal weight.

To actually get it right, you would have to have a good estimate of how many will vote early versus on election day, and be confident that you managed to sample them correctly. It's a huge problem for an estimator.

States where one team clearly wins will still be easy to call, but there will be a lot more uncertainty in the polling, and counting the ballots will be slower, so the swing states will be harder to estimate, and so will take a long time.

My personal hope is that Texas and Georgia are difficult to call, and we'll have to wait until Wednesday to find out if it's an electoral victory, or an electoral landslide.
 
If Biden wins, early in his aminnistration I would call the heads of the CIA, Defense Intelligence Service and the NSA and tell them Basically When it comes to Putin and Russia it's payback time, and to find a way to mess up Putin's internal political standing...without leaving fingerprints, of course.

WAAY more urgent:

make a list of all the intel Trump gave to adversaries.
 
As for which one is "better", which I suppose would mean more accurate,
it's hard to say. Modern polls aren't really polls anymore. People don't
answer their phones to strangers, so you simply cannot take an old style
poll. Instead, they are professional estimates, based on survey data, but
combined with whatever other data they have to massage the numbers.


Ah. Now I understand. I’m literally looking at statistical grain noise.

I wondered how one poll could have, say, ten percent undecided
or democrats voting for Trump and another poll with one percent
for those groups. I’m not looking at sample sizes of one thousand.
I’m actually looking at sample size of a hundred extrapolated into
a sample size of a thousand by the use of various proxies. It was
completely wild. I saw one where forty percent of republicans in
Pennsylvania planning on voting for Biden. What? Then another
saying eight percent would vote for Biden. Um.

Okay. So…

Even if Biden leads Trump by fifteen percent I cannot say he will
win the popular vote.

Absolutely mind blowing.
 
Let's imagine a scenario. I'll use numbers that would make me happy, but are within the possible results that I've been reading.

Donald Trump is incredibly effective at getting out the vote - for Biden. People flock to the polls in record numbers to vote against Trump. Imagine 150 million votes. I've seen that number projected, so it's not ridiculous. When all the votes are counted, Biden wins by 55% to 45%. 10 points. Actually on the low side of current polls, some of which project up to a 17 point lead.

And why are people motivated to vote against Trump, much more than in 2016? Covid 19. But, that means the people who hate him are more likely to vote by absentee ballot or some other means than interacting with lots of people on election day. Let's imagine that 45% of Democrats vote before election day. 22% or Republicans vote before election day. That would be 52 million total votes before election day. We already have over 20 million early votes, so 50 million before November 3 seems realistic.

On election day, the remaining voters show up at the polls. There are 45.4 million Democrats voting on election day, and 52.7 million Republicans. If you base your exit poll solely on people leaving the polling place, you would get 46.4% for Biden, 53.7% for Trump. If the networks base projections on those numbers, they would have Trump declared the winner early in the evening, only to discover that the real numbers were lopsided the other way. (And Trump would declare massive vote fraud, because roundoff error and the wrong guy won.)

Suppose, instead, that you knew there would be a problem, so you did exit polls of early voters as well. Since you don't know how to do it, you will select 1000 early voters, and 1000 election day voters. You would find that among early voters, 710 voted for Biden, and 290 for Trump. On election day, 463 for Biden, and 537 for Trump. Adding everything up, 1173 for Biden, or 58%. (Again, inconsistent rounding. Close enough) So, Biden is significantly overestimated, because election day and early ballots are give equal weight.

To actually get it right, you would have to have a good estimate of how many will vote early versus on election day, and be confident that you managed to sample them correctly. It's a huge problem for an estimator.

States where one team clearly wins will still be easy to call, but there will be a lot more uncertainty in the polling, and counting the ballots will be slower, so the swing states will be harder to estimate, and so will take a long time.

My personal hope is that Texas and Georgia are difficult to call, and we'll have to wait until Wednesday to find out if it's an electoral victory, or an electoral landslide.

Interesting post. I must say it is very well thought out. But relying on the double digit polls may be a bit of a problem. There's a fly in the ointment of polling. I also received a call and was asked to participate in a telephonic poll. Since I'm retired I have plenty of time to talk with pollsters and telemarketers, fundraisers etc. Most people find these kinds of calls annoying but I enjoy them. After a few demographic type questions were answered the lady calling finally got to the meat of the matter and reason for the call. When asked which party I was planning to support in the upcoming election I replied "The Democrats and specifically Joe Biden" I went on to say "Everyone in this household will vote for Biden" and sure enough that seemed to end the survey questions. Curiously a few days later I received a fund raiser call from Amy McGrath's campaign. (She's a Democrat candidate running for Senate against Mitch McConnell here in KY.) This lady was very nice too and we talked for about an hour. Yet even though I assured her I had already made the maximum allowed private campaign contribution, I neglected to inform her it went to Mitch McConnell.

Now just so you know in reality I'd rather eat a live slug than vote for Biden and I'll be voting for Donald Trump as well. But the folks that call me probably have it written down somewhere that they found another vote for their side.........This is likely not an isolated incident.
 
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Let's imagine a scenario. I'll use numbers that would make me happy, but are within the possible results that I've been reading.

Donald Trump is incredibly effective at getting out the vote - for Biden. People flock to the polls in record numbers to vote against Trump. Imagine 150 million votes. I've seen that number projected, so it's not ridiculous. When all the votes are counted, Biden wins by 55% to 45%. 10 points. Actually on the low side of current polls, some of which project up to a 17 point lead.

And why are people motivated to vote against Trump, much more than in 2016? Covid 19. But, that means the people who hate him are more likely to vote by absentee ballot or some other means than interacting with lots of people on election day. Let's imagine that 45% of Democrats vote before election day. 22% or Republicans vote before election day. That would be 52 million total votes before election day. We already have over 20 million early votes, so 50 million before November 3 seems realistic.

On election day, the remaining voters show up at the polls. There are 45.4 million Democrats voting on election day, and 52.7 million Republicans. If you base your exit poll solely on people leaving the polling place, you would get 46.4% for Biden, 53.7% for Trump. If the networks base projections on those numbers, they would have Trump declared the winner early in the evening, only to discover that the real numbers were lopsided the other way. (And Trump would declare massive vote fraud, because roundoff error and the wrong guy won.)

Suppose, instead, that you knew there would be a problem, so you did exit polls of early voters as well. Since you don't know how to do it, you will select 1000 early voters, and 1000 election day voters. You would find that among early voters, 710 voted for Biden, and 290 for Trump. On election day, 463 for Biden, and 537 for Trump. Adding everything up, 1173 for Biden, or 58%. (Again, inconsistent rounding. Close enough) So, Biden is significantly overestimated, because election day and early ballots are give equal weight.

To actually get it right, you would have to have a good estimate of how many will vote early versus on election day, and be confident that you managed to sample them correctly. It's a huge problem for an estimator.

States where one team clearly wins will still be easy to call, but there will be a lot more uncertainty in the polling, and counting the ballots will be slower, so the swing states will be harder to estimate, and so will take a long time.

My personal hope is that Texas and Georgia are difficult to call, and we'll have to wait until Wednesday to find out if it's an electoral victory, or an electoral landslide.

IMO what the Trump Campaign wants is:

  • Much higher absentee ballots - so they can claim that these were fraudulent
  • Much higher turnout in minority districts - so they can cast doubt on the veracity of those polls
  • A big difference in the vote split for absentee vs. in person voting with in person voting favouring President Trump, or at least being closer - so again they can claim massive voter fraud
  • A big difference between the outcome (which would include early and absentee ballots) and polling station polls - once again allowing them to claim election fraud

What they would then like to do is challenge the results in the courts using this evidence to have millions of absentee, early and minority district ballots thrown out. They'll be able to do this in states with GOP stacked courts and GOP legislatures. They won't be able to do it in states without but that's also OK, they can they scream about how unfair that is AND claim that those states must have even greater levels of election fraud than that found in friendly states.

I'm no longer so worried about President Trump winning the election. I do have significant concerns about the election result standing. If it's close IMO then the GOP will be able to nudge it in their favour (and remember, if papers are excluded that also swings down-ballot races their way). If it's a Biden landslide then they'll have to bludgeon it in their favour.
 
Lots and lots of concern again, worst case scenarios and doubts. I'm sure that's very helpful and realistic.

Actually things look very good, the trends turn quite slowly indeed and the time is running out. If the situation is broadly the same (as shown by the top aggregators) in 10 days time, Biden's victory is pretty much sealed. Yes, there might be ugly scenes instigated by the losers, but the election itself is increasingly likely going to Biden. I would have expected the race being much, much tighter at this late stage. Excellent and encouraging news!
 
Interesting post. I must say it is very well thought out. But relying on the double digit polls may be a bit of a problem. There's a fly in the ointment of polling. I also received a call and was asked to participate in a telephonic poll. Since I'm retired I have plenty of time to talk with pollsters and telemarketers, fundraisers etc. Most people find these kinds of calls annoying but I enjoy them. After a few demographic type questions were answered the lady calling finally got to the meat of the matter and reason for the call. When asked which party I was planning to support in the upcoming election I replied "The Democrats and specifically Joe Biden" I went on to say "Everyone in this household will vote for Biden" and sure enough that seemed to end the survey questions. Curiously a few days later I received a fund raiser call from Amy McGrath's campaign. (She's a Democrat candidate running for Senate against Mitch McConnell here in KY.) This lady was very nice too and we talked for about an hour. Yet even though I assured her I had already made the maximum allowed private campaign contribution, I neglected to inform her it went to Mitch McConnell.

Now just so you know in reality I'd rather eat a live slug than vote for Biden and I'll be voting for Donald Trump as well. But the folks that call me probably have it written down somewhere that they found another vote for their side.........This is likely not an isolated incident.

Because no one has ever done that before, no one voting the other way has ever done it before and the pollsters aren't aware that it happens.
 
Lots and lots of concern again, worst case scenarios and doubts. I'm sure that's very helpful and realistic.

Actually things look very good, the trends turn quite slowly indeed and the time is running out. If the situation is broadly the same (as shown by the top aggregators) in 10 days time, Biden's victory is pretty much sealed. Yes, there might be ugly scenes instigated by the losers, but the election itself is increasingly likely going to Biden. I would have expected the race being much, much tighter at this late stage. Excellent and encouraging news!
Yeah, Biden is leading bigly, which is unpresidented, and it is cause for hope :) . Also, demographically the US population is shifting, so that the population will grow more and more blue, so to speak. The GOP is going to have to reform, or they'll soon simply be unable to win any more elections, especially with some good voting reform to make voting supression harder.

America is not yet lost.
 
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