Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[Boudicca90]

AFAICT the assumption among the girls' parents was that the sort of penetrative sex which might well lead to pregnancy was possible now whereas before it was physically impossible. Seems to me they could reasonably require more intensive chaperoning now that the risks have changed.

Nothing has changed just because the cisgender girls have the ability to become pregnant. Putting someone with a penis and someone with a vagina in a room together doesn't automatically ensure they will have sex, like the parents seem to think. If a chaperone would make them feel better about things, fine. But it still sends a message to the trans girl that she is not to be trusted.

 

[d4m10n]

But it still sends a message to the trans girl that she is not to be trusted.

Is there some reason to believe she should be trusted more than cisgender boys?

 

[Meadmaker]

Nothing has changed just because the cisgender girls have the ability to become pregnant. Putting someone with a penis and someone with a vagina in a room together doesn't automatically ensure they will have sex, like the parents seem to think. If a chaperone would make them feel better about things, fine. But it still sends a message to the trans girl that she is not to be trusted.

This is the attitude I was describing near the end of my post.

No, they will not automatically have sex. Cis boys and cis girls in the same room will not automatically have sex, and yet we never allow it. Why not? Because, as adults, we are capable of considering multiple outcomes, including the improbable ones, and so we know that we should take steps to ensure that low probability events never happen, if the consequences are severe. i.e, we keep boys and girls apart not because we think it's likely the girls will get pregnant, but because we know it's possible. As far as the trust issue is concerned, do we trust teenagers not to have sex? Any teenagers? Hell, no.

So, should we keep transgirls and cisgirls apart? When the subject came up in the Robotics forum, people expressed offense at the suggestion that the transgirl might "do something" with one of the cisgirls. That is what led me to note that somehow, transpeople, alone among teenagers, apparently never do the thing that every other teenager wants to do.

 

[Boudicca90]

Is there some reason to believe she should be trusted more than cisgender boys?

I don't know, there wasn't anything about her sexual orientation in the post. If there was some indication that she couldn't be trusted, I didn't see it anywhere.

I don't think cisgender boys should automatically be assumed they will have sex with girls either just because they are boys. I think that kind of stereotyping is a big part of why there is so much distrust of us among cisgender women. That because we were once males, that we are biologically determined to have the stereotypical aggression and heightened sexuality of males. It's due to sexism.

 

[Boudicca90]

This is the attitude I was describing near the end of my post.

No, they will not automatically have sex. Cis boys and cis girls in the same room will not automatically have sex, and yet we never allow it. Why not? Because, as adults, we are capable of considering multiple outcomes, including the improbable ones, and so we know that we should take steps to ensure that low probability events never happen, if the consequences are severe. i.e, we keep boys and girls apart not because we think it's likely the girls will get pregnant, but because we know it's possible. As far as the trust issue is concerned, do we trust teenagers not to have sex? Any teenagers? Hell, no.

So, should we keep transgirls and cisgirls apart? When the subject came up in the Robotics forum, people expressed offense at the suggestion that the transgirl might "do something" with one of the cisgirls. That is what led me to note that somehow, transpeople, alone among teenagers, apparently never do the thing that every other teenager wants to do.

No, it's more due to the assumption that they will do something in the first place. I understand parents fears here, but they are due to sex-based stereotypes, and discrimination is not the answer to a miniscule chance that something might happen. Trans people aren't any different than cis people in this regard, it's all overstated.

 

[d4m10n]

That because we were once males, that we are biologically determined to have the stereotypical aggression and heightened sexuality of males.

Have there been any studies on point? It's not obvious to me why an untransitioned transgender male teenager should be presumed to have less libido than similarly aged and situated males.

 

[Meadmaker]

No, it's more due to the assumption that they will do something in the first place. I understand parents fears here, but they are due to sex-based stereotypes, and discrimination is not the answer to a miniscule chance that something might happen. Trans people aren't any different than cis people in this regard, it's all overstated.

That is crazy.

It is assumed that everyone after puberty likes sex. There's no sexual stereotype going on here. Boys like sex. Girls like sex. Who is stereotyping what here? Try and turn this into a discrimination case all you want, but there is no discrimination going on here except by you. You are saying that the transgirl has some sort of abnormally low sex drive, so that there's no risk she will have sex if the opportunity arises.

 

[Boudicca90]

Have there been any studies on point? It's not obvious to me why an untransitioned transgender male teenager should be presumed to have less libido than similarly aged and situated males.

It's not about libido, it's the willingness to act on that libido.

When I was in high school, I was out for the most part. At least it was no secret that I was gay. Being biologically male, my sex drive was pretty high, but I didn't have any desire for girls. I think it would be perfectly acceptable for someone like me back then to room with cisgender girls, because the chance of me doing anything with them is zero.

I know there would still be a backlash to this simply because I was male, but simple biology doesn't determine sexuality. The assumption that there would be a risk with me would be due to heterosexism, that just because I was male that I would have sexual attraction to the girls, and that I would act on it. That would not be the case.

 

[Boudicca90]

That is crazy.

In the typical sex scenario, there is exactly one man and exactly one woman, consensually boinking because they like that sort of thing. The "man" and "woman" might be adolescents, sometimes referred to as "boy" and "girl" or "young man" and "young woman". However, everyone also knows that sometimes other variations occur with the number and sex of the people involved, and we know that not all sexual encounters are mutually consensual.

It is assumed that everyone after puberty likes sex. There's no sexual stereotype going on here. Boys like sex. Girls like sex. Who is stereotyping what here? Try and turn this into a discrimination case all you want, but there is no discrimination going on here except by you. You are saying that the transgirl has some sort of abnormally low sex drive, so that there's no risk she will have sex if the opportunity arises.

This is actually a perfect example of heterosexism right here. The assumption that males and females will be attracted to each other when that might not be the case, like due to homosexuality or transgenderism.

Transpeople do usually (but not always) have issues regarding sex due to our dysphoria, so there is some difference there. For example, I still have a penis, but I have no desire to use my penis during sex. Also despite the high sex drive I had for much of my life, I am still a virgin. I could never get close to anybody as a male, so it's just been recently that I've started to get out and date guys. Sex is far more complicated than you make it out to be.

 

[Paul2]

This is actually a perfect example of heterosexism right here. The assumption that males and females will be attracted to each other when that might not be the case, like due to homosexuality or transgenderism.

Transpeople do usually (but not always) have issues regarding sex due to our dysphoria, so there is some difference there. For example, I still have a penis, but I have no desire to use my penis during sex. Also despite the high sex drive I had for much of my life, I am still a virgin. I could never get close to anybody as a male, so it's just been recently that I've started to get out and date guys. Sex is far more complicated than you make it out to be.

Meanmaker is not assuming any person or boy/girl pair will be attracted to each other. It's a statistical argument that many, perhaps most, could be. And you don't know who will act on attraction or not when placed into the circumstance of being able to act on their libido. Heck, probably even the teens themselves don't know, being new to the game.

 

[Meadmaker]

Meanmaker is not assuming any person or boy/girl pair will be attracted to each other. It's a statistical argument that many, perhaps most, could be. And you don't know who will act on attraction or not when placed into the circumstance of being able to act on their libido. Heck, probably even the teens themselves don't know, being new to the game.

And even "being attracted to" is not the same as "willing to have sex with".

 

[Boudicca90]

Meanmaker is not assuming any person or boy/girl pair will be attracted to each other. It's a statistical argument that many, perhaps most, could be. And you don't know who will act on attraction or not when placed into the circumstance of being able to act on their libido. Heck, probably even the teens themselves don't know, being new to the game.

Better to separate everyone then I guess, just to be fair.

 

[d4m10n]

It's not about libido, it's the willingness to act on that libido.

The parents in question aren't exactly in a position to assess willingness, are they? All they can tell is that their daughters are now expected to bunk w/ someone who produces sperm and might well enjoy the sort of things healthy teenage boys rather often do. Call that heterosexism if you like, it seems like something they've good reason to guard against.

 

[Paul2]

Better to separate everyone then I guess, just to be fair.

You don't need to separate everyone to prevent a possible teen pregnancy, just the boys from the girls.

 

[d4m10n]

You don't need to separate everyone to prevent a possible teen pregnancy, just the boys from the girls.

Males from the females, IMO.

 

[Boudicca90]

You don't need to separate everyone to prevent a possible teen pregnancy, just the boys from the girls.

Males from the females, IMO.

Clearly looking at things that simplistically doesn't work anymore. Unless you ignore and erase LGBTQ+ people. Gender and sexuality are far more complex than the biological assumptions you are starting with. Potential risk of pregnancy is just a nice way to sidestep the issue.

 

[Earthborn]

(even though I very much want to eradicate gender roles as being confining and oppressive)...

And yet you enthusiastically endorse some of the most confining and oppressive elements of those gender roles, even to the point where you argue that not doing so is some sort of violation of "women's sex-based rights".

Hm, that's another nuance the trans will need to internalize (need to have internalized?) to make the transition complete and seamless: being offended when stared at or admired.

By that logic, the transwomen I know really are women.

“Is this dude looking at me because I’m attractive, or is he examining me because I’m trans?”

Or both. Tranny chasers are a thing.

I just read this interesting article by Prof. Michael Bailey on 'How to Ruin Sex Research' (also applicable to other areas of research).

I think other ways of ruining sex research include writing a book that claims to be the "science of transgenderism" without very much science in it, perpetuates old stereotypes of what constitutes femininity, is more about one's own experience and doesn't seem to involve much listening to one's test subjects. Or using penile plethysmography to supposedly prove bisexuality doesn't "really exist", and dragging it out of the archives and releasing it to the press right at the moment one is criticised for a book that may make people think "... so if there are two very distinct types of transsexuals, one extremely homosexual and the other extremely heterosexual, what about bisexual transsexuals?"

Is it a premiss supporting that conclusion? Or is it the conclusion itself?

I don't understand your question.

We've seen some fairly sharp disagreements about the breadth of activities covered by that last phrase.

Sure. That tends to be true of political slogans.

Some think that it's okay to designate an all-female nude beach or bathing area,

Never heard of sex-segregated nudist beaches. I do think nudists tend to be somewhat intolerant toward genital diversity though.

 

[d4m10n]

Potential risk of pregnancy is just a nice way to sidestep the issue.

I don't know if you've spent much time around pro-life folks, but for them unplanned pregnancy is a profoundly serious issue.

 

[Meadmaker]

Clearly looking at things that simplistically doesn't work anymore. Unless you ignore and erase LGBTQ+ people. Gender and sexuality are far more complex than the biological assumptions you are starting with. Potential risk of pregnancy is just a nice way to sidestep the issue.

As a Robotics mentor, I'm more interested in whether the students can apply physics to the problem of throwing nerf balls into a target. When it comes to gender, sexuality, biology, I'm most concerned that the number of people who go to the competition is the same as the number that return.

 

[d4m10n]

Never heard of sex-segregated nudist beaches.

Consider them a hypothetical, at least until someone makes it happen. At which point I'll shrug and say, "Hey, no skin off my back" and others will condemn it as a transphobic outrage.