Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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Emily's Cat said:
:rolleyes: I'm not doubling down on it. I don't think it would be appropriate. I want to know WHY you think it wouldn't be appropriate. You claim to have a battery of reasons. Please provide some of them.
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Hang on? You mentioned it as a viable solution. And yet now you're saying it isn't a viable solution? I told you it wasn't a viable solution. And then you're asking me to justify why something which I never mooted as a viable solution (but which you yourself did) is not a viable solution?

Next stop: Bizarro-World.......
 
Emily's Cat said:
You should really quit assuming things. Especially things that have actually been addressed elsewhere in this discussion.

Once again, you seem to feel that sex is irrelevant, and that sex-based discrimination and prejudices are socially acceptable. It's only gender identity that merits consideration.

It seems that females don't matter to you... only people who self-declare themselves to be women matter, and then they matter far more than females do.
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Hello strawman my old friend....

So let's strip it down to a simple question which should not take long at all for you to address and answer:

Do you think trans men should use men's bathrooms or women's bathrooms? And what are your reasons behind your choice?


It's REALLY not doing your position any favours when you keep saying unsubstantiated and incendiary anti-male nonsense like "It seems that females don't matter to you... only people who self-declare themselves to be women matter, and then they matter far more than females do."

Just an observation......
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Good for her. Her concerns are dismissed because they are unsupported by evidence and ultimately unconvincing.
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Emily's Cat said:
Oh, no, that's patently false. You've been given evidence. Real evidence. You just choose to ignore it. As if somehow you're pretending it doesn't exist actually makes it nonexistent.
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AGG,

I can't help but notice that you talk a lot about evidence, but you don't cite very much of it. Some people on this forum are all about links, and surveys, and journal articles, and the rest of the lot, but you don't seem to be that sort. It's not really your style.

I'm not even sure what sort of evidence you are looking for, Evidence of what? That transwomen are really women? I think that's more of a linguistic point than a scientific one.

Your response to a lot of arguments is "that's not persuasive" or sometimes more explicitly "I'm not persuaded." Well, that's fine. I've argued a lot over the years on anything from the evils of supply side economics to whether or not rockets actually work in space, and my track record on persuasion is pretty dismal, but I think that's true of most forum arguments. We rarely persuade anyone of anything.

What I'm getting at is that we know your opinion, and we know that you find counterarguments unpersuasive, but you don't seem to present evidence-based arguments. You don't even seem to respond when other people do, such as the survey (both parts of it) that EC has brought up repeatedly. You present analogies, name-calling, circular definitions. and assertions.

Which makes you no worse than most people, but when accompanied by talk about "evidence" from other people makes for a stark contrast.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
It's a pain isn't it. Luckily mine has generally been OK with going in by herself as long as I waited outside the door.
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A pain? I used to have a routine to make sure that all orifices had been suitably evacuated before we set foot outside the frakkin hall door to attempt to minimise the chance of a necessary journey. And was never fully comfortable on any outing as I was in dread of the "I need to go" announcement. It was such a relief when they were able to go sort themselves out without my presence.

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I actually don't think there is a 'right' answer to this question. In the situation I would probably see if there was a baby changing facility or something that we could use instead. If given a straight choice between ladies and gents then my tendency would be to say that since she's the one doing the business then we should use the facility for her - i.e. the ladies. But honestly, both ways SHOULD be fine. I think I'd feel awkward either way so another good argument for unisex facilities.
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I used to use the back seat of my car in the days when nappies were in use rather than the facilities. I have a screaming child with a full nappy. Like hell I need a second screaming loon. Come to think of it, somebody bought that car years ago. If only they knew.

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I hope at least that the people who say penises are shocking to women would not suggest that I should expose my daughter to multiple of them in the men's room?
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I don't have any answer to that. I did have a hilarious convo with my eldest about the contrast between the ladies and the gents that resulted with both of us crying laughing.

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Incidentally, if people are having sex in a ladies room openly then yes they are doing something wrong. Moreso if the ladies room is frequented by 6 year old girls.
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That would be a student adventure I had decades ago. Crazy stuff happens then. Believe it or not, I was once young and insane.
 
LondonJohn said:
Hang on? You mentioned it as a viable solution. And yet now you're saying it isn't a viable solution? I told you it wasn't a viable solution. And then you're asking me to justify why something which I never mooted as a viable solution (but which you yourself did) is not a viable solution?

Next stop: Bizarro-World.......
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You seem to have (inadvertently or intentionally, not sure which) missed the context and intent of the initial question. Why don't you re-read my post, and maybe try to see how these two paragraphs are related:

Emily's Cat said:
Or, you know, we can just go with the solution apparently preferred by transgender activists: females just aren't important, and their safety is not a big deal. It's worth it to the transgender activists to sacrifice the safety of females so that males who identify as women get things made better for them.

Why don't you put them in the Juvenile holding? Surely the transwomen would be less at risk from minors? Even less so than if they were put in with females?
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You went on to reject the idea of putting transwomen into a juvenile prison "out of hand", assuming that the reasons are obvious. I have some reasons why I think it is obviously not a good solution, but I'd very much like to hear YOUR reasons for why it would be a bad solution to put transwomen in with juveniles, even though they would definitely be safer housed with juveniles than they would be while housed with men. I'd like you to communicate the reason why that is an inappropriate solution.
 
abaddon said:
I used to use the back seat of my car in the days when nappies were in use rather than the facilities. I have a screaming child with a full nappy. Like hell I need a second screaming loon. Come to think of it, somebody bought that car years ago. If only they knew.
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By the time I was a dad, which started in 1998, most men's rooms in places where children were likely to be present had baby changing facilities in America. The swanky restaurant might not, because they didn't want your kid in there anyway, but the highway rest stop, shopping mall, and many fast food outlets did.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
If a transperson says black people are stupid then they are being bigoted, if a black man says all Muslims are terrorists then they are being bigoted, if a disabled lesbian native american says that women need to stay home and look after their husbands then they are being bigoted. And vice versa if you reverse all of those positions.
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And if I say "Otherkin aren't literally turning into animals" I'm not.

"All Muslims are terrorists" and "You have to have a penis to be a man" are not the same thing, not matter how much you just can't get past thinking they are.
 
LondonJohn said:
So let's strip it down to a simple question which should not take long at all for you to address and answer:

Do you think trans men should use men's bathrooms or women's bathrooms? And what are your reasons behind your choice?
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(Not speaking for EC or anyone else.)

I think trans men should use men's bathrooms if they want to. My reasoning is that it matters a lot to them, and it doesn't cost much for the rest of us to accommodate it.

So here's a slightly more complex question for you. Please take your time to answer:

How do you allow transwomen unchallenged access to women's shelters, without allowing cis-males unchallenged access to women's shelters?
 
If we accept that "women" (in general) deserve a "safe space" (again I hate how much baggage that term has picked up but I think it's valid in this context) from "men" (in general) but then turn around and don't let them define the parameters what are we really even doing?

Basically as it stands now we're telling women they aren't smart enough to know who they want to be protected from but still telling them they have a right to be protected.

Either drop the idea that women have some inherent right to male-free spaces (which for the record has always been my answer) or let them actually define the male-free space.
 
LondonJohn said:
I wish your transgender son all happiness in a world free from prejudice or discrimination towards him.
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Amusing.

But I have learned a lot from the journey. One thing I have learned is that the bigotry is almost impossible to wash away.

He was terrified when he came out to me some years ago. Why? Because I am super straight and make no secret that I am.

But that does not apply to anyone but me. My orientation is independent of anyone else's. Everyone has their own orientation regardless of mine.

When he did come out and I merely shrugged and said "OK" the relief poured off him. He thought that I was so straight that I would go off like a nuke.

I pointed out that I am straight. That says exactly **** all about whatever anyone else might be. Nor does it mean that I want to tell anyone what they should or should not be. That is none of my business.

That is a respect for each person that I believe should be extended by each person to each person.

I have had many strange conversations with folks about this, and I just cannot work it out. My orientation is not dictated by anyone else's. Why should it be? They can be whatever, I don't care. I am still me regardless of anyone else.They are them regardless of anyone else. It bothers me not one bit.
 
LondonJohn said:
Do you think trans men should use men's bathrooms or women's bathrooms? And what are your reasons behind your choice?
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My approach for bathrooms for transmen and transwomen is the same: Use the bathroom that a random observer is most likely to assume you should be in.

I will also point out, that the discussion keeps getting dragged back to bathroom usage over and over, even though that is an area with the least conflict and the least impact on anyone involved. So even though the vast majority of people on both sides of this thread have repeatedly said that bathrooms aren't really an issue, use whatever you wish to... that's where it keeps getting reframed.

I'm not the one doing the reframing.


LondonJohn said:
It's REALLY not doing your position any favours when you keep saying unsubstantiated and incendiary anti-male nonsense like "It seems that females don't matter to you... only people who self-declare themselves to be women matter, and then they matter far more than females do."
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It doesn't do your position any good when you consistently tap-dance around sex-based issues, dismiss the dynamic of actual biological sex, and constantly replace the term "sex" with the term "gender". It doesn't do your position any good when you just avoid any discussion of sex-based discrimination and inequity as if it doesn't exist at all.
 
That's always a question that never gets answered.

If the problem is the confusion of sex and gender why not just seperate bathrooms by pensis and vaginas and sidestep the entire gender thing entirely? Why wouldn't that be good enough?
 
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abaddon said:
A pain? I used to have a routine to make sure that all orifices had been suitably evacuated before we set foot outside the frakkin hall door to attempt to minimise the chance of a necessary journey. And was never fully comfortable on any outing as I was in dread of the "I need to go" announcement. It was such a relief when they were able to go sort themselves out without my presence.

I used to use the back seat of my car in the days when nappies were in use rather than the facilities. I have a screaming child with a full nappy. Like hell I need a second screaming loon. Come to think of it, somebody bought that car years ago. If only they knew.
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Socially enforced gender roles suck for men too. This is one of those areas where the expectation of sex-based behavior is incredibly detrimental to everyone involved. Dads get a raw deal when it comes to child custody, child care facilities and support, and similar such things. Hell, dads get a raw deal picking their own kids up from school - the moms look askance at any male who is retrieving a child.
 
JoeMorgue said:
If we accept that "women" (in general) deserve a "safe space" (again I hate how much baggage that term has picked up but I think it's valid in this context) from "men" (in general) but then turn around and don't let them define the parameters what are we really even doing?

Basically as it stands now we're telling women they aren't smart enough to know who they want to be protected from but still telling them they have a right to be protected.

Either drop the idea that women have some inherent right to male-free spaces (which for the record has always been my answer) or let them actually define the male-free space.
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I would love to reach a point where having male-free spaces is no longer a relevant need for females. It's a goal... but I don't think we'll get there in my lifetime. I wish we would.
 
theprestige said:
(Not speaking for EC or anyone else.)

I think trans men should use men's bathrooms if they want to. My reasoning is that it matters a lot to them, and it doesn't cost much for the rest of us to accommodate it.

So here's a slightly more complex question for you. Please take your time to answer:

How do you allow transwomen unchallenged access to women's shelters, without allowing cis-males unchallenged access to women's shelters?
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Answer: you don't allow trans women unchallenged access to women's shelters.

Simples.

(Didn't take all that long to answer - not sure why you thought it might)
 
Emily's Cat said:
Socially enforced gender roles suck for men too. This is one of those areas where the expectation of sex-based behavior is incredibly detrimental to everyone involved. Dads get a raw deal when it comes to child custody, child care facilities and support, and similar such things. Hell, dads get a raw deal picking their own kids up from school - the moms look askance at any male who is retrieving a child.
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That there are downsides to socially enforced gender roles doesn't mean the alternatives on offer don't have downsides that are as bad or worse.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Socially enforced gender roles suck for men too. This is one of those areas where the expectation of sex-based behavior is incredibly detrimental to everyone involved. Dads get a raw deal when it comes to child custody, child care facilities and support, and similar such things. Hell, dads get a raw deal picking their own kids up from school - the moms look askance at any male who is retrieving a child.
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Been there, done that, became homeless for two years.

What makes you think I don't know that already?
 
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