Trump's tax returns

[Giordano]

Yep. The bigger Biden's win is, the more they'll shout "Man, the voter fraud was even worse than we thought it was!"

Well, Don Jr recently stated that Don Sr would accept the election results... only if they were a blow-out for Biden.

How reassuring.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Like seriously I'm legit surprised that Trump isn't behind the fact that the closest shopping center to me has 4 different mattress stores.

//For those of you not getting this, there's a long running joke/meme/theory that Mattress Firm is a giant money laundering front since they are everywhere but mattresses aren't the kind of high profit high turnover item that can support this kind of market saturation.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Isn't it ironic that wealthy, powerful politicians doing whatever they wanted and getting away with it was one of the reasons Trump was elected in the first place? Drain the swamp and all that?

It's almost amusing that we're sitting here four years later, talking about whether or not punishing Trump and his cronies would be too triggering to the trumpkins.

PS: I say punish them. The US is crumbling, and in need of reform. The rich 1% being held accountable for their actions is part of that reform.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It does sort of seem like the Trump administration is setting up a gotcha where the only Biden win they will accept is one so lopsided as to be inherently suspicious.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Like seriously I'm legit surprised that Trump isn't behind the fact that the closest shopping center to me has 4 different mattress stores.

//For those of you not getting this, there's a long running joke/meme/theory that Mattress Firm is a giant money laundering front since they are everywhere but mattresses aren't the kind of high profit high turnover item that can support this kind of market saturation.

Actually, I looked into this a couple of years ago because I wondered about the ubiquity of mattress stores. Turns out they are hugely profitable. A mattress sells for multiple hundreds, even a thousand bucks but only costs about twenty or thirty bucks to make, in labor and materials. Those mattress stores stay in business because they only need to sell a couple a week. They're very low effort, very low costs, very high returns percentagewise of what goes into them. Technically, mattress stores are more successful than film studios that pump out blockbuster movies five times a year.

 

[Giordano]

Not really, if you think about the "disrupters" such as Amazon managed their disruption by losing billions and billions.

Yes but there are rules. In the USA the IRS can declare your “business“ is a hobby that is not tax deductible if you take too many years as a loss AND fail to meet certain other criteria.

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tip...classifies-your-business-as-a-hobby/L5NClTTtK

You can’t take it as a deduction but I don’t think it is criminal.

 

[Aridas]

If the IRS felt Trump was involved in tax fraud they would not hand wave it away.

Maybe. However, it's worth remembering that the IRS just keeps getting downsized. Given such, their ability to investigate and potentially go after financial crimes - most especially the financial crimes of the financially complex rich - has been severely diminished.

To poke a little further at that -

The IRS conducted 675,000 fewer audits in 2017 than it did in 2010, a drop in the audit rate of 42 percent. But even those stark numbers don’t tell the whole story, say current and former IRS employees: Auditors are stretched thin, and they’re often forced to limit their investigations and move on to the next audit as quickly as they can.

Without enough staff, the IRS has slashed even basic functions. It has drastically pulled back from pursuing people who don’t bother filing their tax returns. New investigations of “nonfilers,” as they’re called, dropped from 2.4 million in 2011 to 362,000 last year. According to the inspector general for the IRS, the reduction results in at least $3 billion in lost revenue each year. Meanwhile, collections from people who do file but don’t pay have plummeted. Tax obligations expire after 10 years if the IRS doesn’t pursue them. Such expirations were relatively infrequent before the budget cuts began. In 2010, $482 million in tax debts lapsed. By 2017, according to internal IRS collection reports, that figure had risen to $8.3 billion, 17 times as much as in 2010. The IRS’ ability to investigate criminals has atrophied as well.

Incidentally, stuff like this is why the Republican "outrage" at slogans like "Defund the Police" is plenty outrageous itself. The Republican Party has been defunding the police for many years now - albeit just the police that do things to hold the rich and powerful to account (not even remotely limited to the IRS).

 

[angrysoba]

That's doubtful. If he gets truly walloped in the election, he'll go back to his original plan for 2016: Claim that the system is massively rigged and start his own newstainment network, TrumpTV.

As a matter of fact, the worse he gets beat, the stronger his message of oppression will be.

Oh, he will have some hard core followers, no doubt. But basically most of his support comes from rank-and-file Republicans. The majority of them have to know they were beaten heavily. They can complain about it, sure, but they will know it.

It's the Alex Jones-QAnon faction that will be the big disbelievers and the conspiracy theorists. Maybe a few million at most, I would think.

 

[Craig4]

Wasn’t there a calculation that if he hadn’t done anything with his inheritance other than invest it in the DOW he’d be much richer than he is today?

If he'd have gone to an Edward Jones broker (a chain of financial advisors you can find in any strip mall in America known for selling conservative, index fund investments to lower and middle income people) and put the money in an S&P 500 fund, he'd be over twice as rich as he is now.

 

[angrysoba]

It does sort of seem like the Trump administration is setting up a gotcha where the only Biden win they will accept is one so lopsided as to be inherently suspicious.

Well, with luck, it will just be a landslide electoral college blow-out with everywhere down to Texas going blue. Oh, and Lyndsey Graham getting kicked out for good measure.

It needs to be a massive thumping.

 

[Leftus]

I'm sure the boss is not providing a paper trail. But in large organizations, the rank-and-file senses what is expected to avoid trouble. The auditors are already overworked. Why should they stick their necks out to go after Trump when there are easier targets? Surely efficient, aggressive auditors could have closed this case years ago if they wanted to.

And staffing reductions are largely the result of Republican cuts in the IRS budget. It's not like Obama ever said "let's collect less taxes."

"stick their necks out" How so? If they are procedurally correct, they are fine. Aiding someone in avoidance of tax obligations would be neck sticking out. It's a go to jail level of offense. Also, there is 7 to 8 levels of management between the auditors and Rettig. Someone would notice. It would be sticking your neck out to help someone cheat on their taxes, based on your perceived feelings on how the current commissioner feels.

But none of that will satisfy your conspiracy that Rettig, and earlier commissioners were in on it, will it? They would have to be since the audit predates his presidency.

 

[Leftus]

Maybe. However, it's worth remembering that the IRS just keeps getting downsized. Given such, their ability to investigate and potentially go after financial crimes - most especially the financial crimes of the financially complex rich - has been severely diminished.

It's getting better. The restrictions on hiring has come to an end, and I know a few collection sites that are mostly back to full staffing.

 

[Crossbow]

That's doubtful. If he gets truly walloped in the election, he'll go back to his original plan for 2016: Claim that the system is massively rigged and start his own newstainment network, TrumpTV.

As a matter of fact, the worse he gets beat, the stronger his message of oppression will be.

Indeed so and I expect that you are quite correct.

However, I would still rather deal with a sore loser Trump as opposed to an enraged winner Trump.

 

[Aridas]

It's getting better. The restrictions on hiring has come to an end, and I know a few collection sites that are mostly back to full staffing.

That's good to hear - but forgive me if I withhold judgement on that until after the data is available about the more specific effects.

 

[Giordano]

"stick their necks out" How so? If they are procedurally correct, they are fine. Aiding someone in avoidance of tax obligations would be neck sticking out. It's a go to jail level of offense. Also, there is 7 to 8 levels of management between the auditors and Rettig. Someone would notice. It would be sticking your neck out to help someone cheat on their taxes, based on your perceived feelings on how the current commissioner feels.

But none of that will satisfy your conspiracy that Rettig, and earlier commissioners were in on it, will it? They would have to be since the audit predates his presidency.

Rettig is far from the only IRS official who owes their job to Trump. e.g. https://theweek.com/speedreads/8334...legal-counsel-both-have-ties-trump-businesses

Rettig and these others make the high level decisions as to who is audited and what to do with the results. The actual auditors are 7 to 8 levels below this authority, not 7 to 8 levels of independence away. They can lose their jobs for any made up reason if they ignore their supervisors.

The audit contnues because that is what is automatic for all Presidents. But what has become of it?.

 

[The Don]

On the other hand.... Lets say its true. Lets say that we are only seeing evidence of the poorly performing businesses, and Stubby McBonespurs actually has hidden businesses that have more than enough income to cover his losses.

That isn't exactly a sign of a very good businessman. Usually, when you have a large organization with multiple branches, the company will cut out the poorly-performing ones to concentrate on the more profitable areas. (Unless of course they need to stay open for strategic reasons...) If Trump is actually keeping (for example) golf courses open despite them operating at a significant loss, that is the sign of a bad businessman.

It depends on what's causing the losses.

If the businesses themselves are running at a loss, receipts running well behind expenses then that's one thing and you're right, a good businessperson would either address the losses or dispose of the loss-making part of the business.

OTOH if the businesses are running at a loss because they're paying a huge fee to another Trump business to licence the use of the Trump name and/or are carrying a huge debt load because Trump has lumped them with the loans he took out to buy them in the first place and/or are carrying loans belonging to other Trump businesses or Donald Trump himself. This is the kind of approach the Glazers used when they bought Manchester United. They bought the club with loans and then transferred the debt to the club.

 

[turingtest]

The Pres and VP have the honor of being audited every year.

I wouldn't be surprised if every return he has filed has been audited.

It's worth noting that this gives the lie to Trump's excuse for not releasing his taxes, that he's under audit- Obama released his tax returns for 2008-2015:

Then, while in office, he [Obama] published on the White House website his tax returns for 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015...

...And, as we’ve noted before, most sitting presidents since Jimmy Carter have released their tax returns — even though presidents are automatically subject to an annual IRS audit.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump isn't being audited, he is being investigated for potential fraud.

And of course, as with anything legal, Trump does nothing but delay.

 

[acbytesla]

I know this sounds funny. But I would love that to happen. Doing that would amount to a blatant admission of guilt. Something the Trump supporters would have a problem denying.

Really?

I realized the humor of that even while I was writing it. Let's say "some of the Trump supporters". Or a few Trump supporters

I do think such a blatant strategy to sidestep justice would give the country a clear justification to modify laws making such rampant corruption more difficult.

 

[llwyd]

Interesting analysis of the information:

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/09/why-is-donald-trump-deliberately-losing-money/

Whose money is he losing like no tomorrow? One does wonder...