Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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And that is the problem. You seem to think you and you alone have been granted the concept of being offended (or related concepts like bothered by) and no one else is allowed to use it.

No, I don't think my personal or anyone else's personal offence is the basis of legislation. Some people are offended by the presence of black people in their workplace.

I thought the right was all about offence being meaningless? Unless of course they are being offended by black people demanding rights and then decide to shoot them.
 
No, I don't think my personal or anyone else's personal offence is the basis of legislation. Some people are offended by the presence of black people in their workplace.

Yes and the solution to that isn't "Okay but some black people get to identify as white and that will solve the problem."

And again you're not addressing me, but some generic "transphobe" that exists in your head that is the only thing you are capable of arguing against.

I've said it a billion times now that I don't care if a transperson is in "my" bathroom.

The problem is I'm a bigot and a rape enabler because I also wouldn't care if a cis-woman was in my bathroom.
 

Not sure what your "no" is about, but your link does show that a gender marker exists.

"Digit 7–8: The month of birth (+5 for the first character if female)"

So if your month of birth is January, it will show 01 if you're male and 51 if you're female, thus making the 7th digit a gender marker.
 
When I read your responses I genuinely wonder how old you are and/or what year you live in. Do people still have such antiquated ideas of women?

Are you seriously arguing that lesbians don't check out women they find attractive?

Let's dig in on the implicit assumptions you're making here.

First off, let's consider that there are two dynamics here: 1) Whether another person is observing someone with an eye to sexual attractiveness, and 2) Whether that observer has the ability to force themselves on the other person.

For the moment, we will ignore the propensity for sexual violence that is associated with biological sex. We'll just pretend that doesn't exist. It's silly to ignore it, but hey, we'll do so anyway.

Now then. Let's consider a few scenarios, where two cisgendered people are alone in a relatively isolated area with each other:

A) Alice is observing Betty with lecherous delight
B) Alice is observing Bob with lecherous delight
C) Adam is observing Betty with lecherous delight
D) Adam is observing Bob with lecherous delight

I think that in all four of those scenarios, it's reasonable and probably that Betty and Bob might be displeased and uncomfortable with how Alice or Adam is looking at them.

Now on to the second question that is relevant here. For this, let's assume that Alice and Adam are bad people, and they are both equally inclined to force themselves on someone they find sexually attractive.

In which of those scenarios are Betty or Bob most likely to perceive Alice or Adam as a genuine physical threat? In which of those scenarios would Betty or Bob be most likely to become a victim of sexual violence? Is the risk of becoming a victim experience serious injury the same for Betty and Bob in all four scenarios? Or does it differ?
 
Does anyone have a working definition of "female" close to hand? It feels like now that we've given up "woman" we need some (polite) way to refer to uterus-havers / menstruators / individuals with cervices.
I normally refer to them as non-trans woman female/pre-op trans-man male, or NTWFPOTMM for short. It's pretty simple when you get used to it.
 
There is a reason that people coined the term "Social Justice Warrior", SJW for short.
 
But it's interesting that you say 'how would they know?' - which is exactly what I have been saying about transwomen. If a transwoman goes in there and behaves appropriately there would be no reason (other than prejudice) to think that the transwomen is checking anyone out.

If a cisman goes in there and behaves appropriately there would be no reason (other than prejudice) to think that the cisman is checking anyone out either, right? If that's the case, then why should cismen not be allowed into the female changing rooms?

Tedious? Yes. This whole thread of close-minded people just spouting their prejudices is tedious.

It's equally tedious when someone keeps claiming without evidence what the majority of women think/want.

It's also tedious when male people keep dismissing and ignoring what female people actually say they want. And when they keep pretending they've never seen the other half of the survey showing that the majority of females do not want transwomen who have not had GRS in their changing rooms.
 
I'm interested in having conversations with people who are capable of having interesting conversations. I'm not that bothered if they are the picture of civility to me personally. On the other hand if people want to be bigoted then I am not really interested in trying to persuade them out of it with polite conversation. I'm only interested in countering their bigotry.

:confused: There's no discussion to be had then. You don't allow for any other view to be presented, because disagreement is assumed to be evidence of bigotry.

It pretty much boils down to "Agree with me or you're a bad person and not worth talking to".
 
Essentially what we are talking about is the right to private or "safe space" (as much as I hate using that term because of how much baggage it has taken on...) from certain groups. The simple ability to not "be around them" and to not have to adjust your behavior to account for them and everyone seems to think they have a right to determine the criteria.
 
Let's dig in on the implicit assumptions you're making here.

First off, let's consider that there are two dynamics here: 1) Whether another person is observing someone with an eye to sexual attractiveness, and 2) Whether that observer has the ability to force themselves on the other person.

For the moment, we will ignore the propensity for sexual violence that is associated with biological sex. We'll just pretend that doesn't exist. It's silly to ignore it, but hey, we'll do so anyway.

Now then. Let's consider a few scenarios, where two cisgendered people are alone in a relatively isolated area with each other:

A) Alice is observing Betty with lecherous delight
B) Alice is observing Bob with lecherous delight
C) Adam is observing Betty with lecherous delight
D) Adam is observing Bob with lecherous delight

I think that in all four of those scenarios, it's reasonable and probably that Betty and Bob might be displeased and uncomfortable with how Alice or Adam is looking at them.

Now on to the second question that is relevant here. For this, let's assume that Alice and Adam are bad people, and they are both equally inclined to force themselves on someone they find sexually attractive.

In which of those scenarios are Betty or Bob most likely to perceive Alice or Adam as a genuine physical threat? In which of those scenarios would Betty or Bob be most likely to become a victim of sexual violence? Is the risk of becoming a victim experience serious injury the same for Betty and Bob in all four scenarios? Or does it differ?
Depends on whether Bob can hang on to the soap, and has any friends on the inside.
 
Everyone gets to decide what they're interested in. For myself, I'm interested in possibly learning something from someone who thinks differently than I do. I don't mean I'm interested in learning how to be bigoted from from a discussion with a bigot, but, rather, even a bigot might be able to show me something I'd never considered. Rarely is anyone 100% wrong about 100% everything.

Closing yourself off from different ideas is also a way to let those times that oneself is wrong (rarely is anyone 100% right about 100% everything) remain and become more strongly embedded within oneself. Especially when the conversation takes place on a skeptics forum. The first place to be skeptical is with oneself.

For someone who appears to be against bigotry as much as you do, it's sounds strange that you wouldn't want to try to persuade someone to not be bigoted. Now, of course, something like that doesn't happen overnight, and many times it won't happen at all. But I would hope everyone chip away where they can, and, like water dripping on a rock, change *can* happen, albeit slowly. Of course, that type of change is much less likely unless we engage.

One might also find that areas of agreement are possible. I have years of experience as a small claims court mediator, in which I have settled small claims cases just by taking the parties into a room and helping them figure something out, rather than wasting the judge's time. At the beginning of a mediation, it can seem even to mediators that there is no way these two sides will agree on anything, they are so angry at each other. But talking things out, especially with a mediator who understands how these things have to go when they do work, succeeds far more often than one might expect.

Civility is not so much a personal need as it is a necessary foundation for having a conversation in which one might learn from someone else, or be successful in chipping away.

I'm also interested in countering bigotry, and talking civilly is one way to do that. When you are uncivil, you've lost pretty much all hope of your message getting through. Defenses rise up in the other party pretty quickly. It's hard enough when you are civil to try to break through, but it's pretty much impossible otherwise.

We have had (still have?) outright self-confessed racists on this forum. I'm not interested in having a conversation with them once it becomes clear that their arguments are based on prejudice and bigotry. I don't need to test my ideas on whether black people are equal to white people. That matter is settled.

We have had (still have?) outright Islamophobes on this forum. I'm not interested in having a conversation with them once it becomes clear that their arguments are based on prejudice and bigotry.

That's not the same as saying I'm not interested in talking to someone who disagrees with me on these topics. If someone has something interesting or useful to say on either of these topics and can do it without reference to prejudice and bigotry then great. We have potential for an interesting conversation.

I'm not interested in banging my head against a brick wall though. And I'm not interested in trying to change the minds of bigots through reason. Others might be. In my experience that's not how change happens. Slave owners weren't persuaded by argument to give up their slaves.

I also find the whole concept of civility deeply problematic at times. Politely saying something awful is not civil. And I think we get those two things confused at times. It's something that has been used in the past to keep minorities down - painting their righteous anger as incivility. So I'm always cautious of demands to respect positions which are inherently disrespectful to others.
 
So I'm always cautious of demands to respect positions which are inherently disrespectful to others.

Again why do only you get to do this?

Emily Cat has been very clear that she feels you are inherently disrespectful of her. Why are her concerns dismissed and yours holy writ?

You seem to think there is some approved "Who's victim to who" flowchart out there we all have a copy of and are working off of.

You've defined "Bigotry" down to "Just nod and agree with what the underdog in the conversation says or else."
 
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Yes and the solution to that isn't "Okay but some black people get to identify as white and that will solve the problem."

And again you're not addressing me, but some generic "transphobe" that exists in your head that is the only thing you are capable of arguing against.

I've said it a billion times now that I don't care if a transperson is in "my" bathroom.

The problem is I'm a bigot and a rape enabler because I also wouldn't care if a cis-woman was in my bathroom.

I'm addressing you in so much as I am addressing the points you are raising. I am not necessarily addressing you in that not every example or argument I make is going to be one that specifically applies to you.

You raised a question about offence and I answered it. That has nothing to do with your personal views on transpeople. If you want to talk about your personal views on transpeople we can do that too, but personally i find them not in the least bit helpful to the real world situation and incredibly confusing to follow.

For example when I talked about offence not being a basis for legislation you countered with 'but we can't just say black people are white' as if that was in anyway relevant to the point being made.
 
I hope at least that the people who say penises are shocking to women would not suggest that I should expose my daughter to multiple of them in the men's room?

Penises aren't in an of themselves shocking. I don't have a problem with nudity as such. I'd prefer to see more wedding tackle on TV and less gory violence, myself.

That's not the issue. It's not "seeing penises are scary". It's not a prudish tendency toward puritanism that is the concern.

The problem is that these are relatively isolated areas, not under the direct observance of authorities, in which people are naked and vulnerable to others. Not all people present the same level of risk to others.

Data and resources have been provided multiple times, and it's been repeated many times, but you just keep ignoring it:
1 in 3 females has been sexually assaulted
1 in 6 females have been the victims of attempted or completed rape
90% of the victims of sexual violence are female
98% of the perpetrators of sexual violence are male

Most males aren't bad people. Most males aren't inclined to assault females. But some are. And there's no way for females to know which is which.

And if that particular male happens to be one that is inclined to assualt females... there is almost nothing a female alone with him can do about it. The best course of action for a female, across the board, is to simply never be in vulnerable and relatively isolated situations with adult males.

When you take your daughter into the mens room, some of the men might feel uncomfortable, and your daughter might feel uncomfortable. But none of you are going to feel intimidated or at risk of sexual assault. Your daughter isn't a physical threat to the men in there, and the men in there are unlikely to see you as a risk of assault. If nothing else, there's a reasonable likelihood that other men could fight you off if you lost your mind and decide to try to rape one of them. There's at least a reasonable likelihood that they could give as good as they got.

If a woman takes her child (of either sex) into the men's room, some of the men might feel uncomfortable, and a female child might feel uncomfortable as well. But pretty much none of the men in the room are going to feel intimidated or at risk of sexual assault from a female. A female is, in nearly every case, not a physical threat to a male. In almost every single case, a male will have no trouble at all fighting off an aggressive female.

When you, a male, take your daughter into the womens room, most of the women are likely to feel uncomfortable, but your daughter will probably feel very comfortable. In addition, most of the women will acknowledge that you could be a real threat of sexual assault, and are likely to feel intimidated whether you think of yourself as a threat or not. Because... if you were to happen to be one of those males inclined toward sexual violence, there is not much the females in the room could do about it. You're extremely likely to be bigger and stronger.

Now... there's a reasonable likelihood that if you are accompanying a young girl, most of the women will assume that you're chaperoning her, and they'll assume that even if you are someone inclined to sexual violence, you're not likely to do so in front of your daughter. And based on that risk assessment, they might decide that your presence is tolerable and low risk.

Don't make the error of assuming that the subconscious risk assessments performed by women in that specific situation can be generalized to all situations. And don't make the error of assuming that the risk assessments done by females are flawed or exaggerated because you know that you specifically are not a risk.
 
Again why do only you get to do this?

I don't only get to do this.

Emily Cat has been very clear that she feels you are inherently disrespectful of her. Why are her concerns dismissed and yours holy writ?

Good for her. Her concerns are dismissed because they are unsupported by evidence and ultimately unconvincing. They didn't make sense. Equally if mine don't make sense you can ditch them too.

You seem to think there is some approved "Who's victim to who" flowchart out there we all have a copy of and are working off of.

Not in the least. It's not the first time you have said this. It's a weird conclusion. Quite the opposite of what has actually been argued.

If a transperson says black people are stupid then they are being bigoted, if a black man says all Muslims are terrorists then they are being bigoted, if a disabled lesbian native american says that women need to stay home and look after their husbands then they are being bigoted. And vice versa if you reverse all of those positions.

It's got nothing to so with who says it. it's what is being said.

You've defined "Bigotry" down to "Just nod and agree with what the underdog in the conversation says or else."

No I haven't. Quite the opposite. And I'm not sure why you aren't getting that.
 
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