Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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If doctors cannot deny a request for a legal gender change, then the requirement that they sign off on a gender change is meaningless paper pushing.

I agree with this point. The question then is why do some people regard removing the requirement for meaningless paper pushing as a threat? Because this is what opponents of Self-ID are saying, if they agree with your statement above.

Which is where I started this little exchange. To argue that Self-ID is a threat and also that a doctors involvement in the legal gender change process is meaningless paper pushing is incoherent.

Those who support Self-ID are saying that doctors being involved in the process of a legal gender change is unnecessary paper pushing and therefore should be removed.
 
Nope, two sinks, two urinals, two stalls.


And nobody cared. I and both my kids used it at various times. Nobody cared.

If one happened to meet someone of whatever gender, one politely greets and got on about one's necessary business. And nobody cared.

I stood at a urinal for obvious reasons and a woman emerged from a stall and said Hi. I said Hi back. Nobody cared.

She got on with her business and I got on with mine.

But some people get freaked out by this.

I have no idea why.
Personally, I have no problem with unisex bathrooms.

However, I think it's not immaterial that they are posted as such. By entering that space, you are accepting the nature of the space and who may be in it. If it makes you uncomfortable, you can attempt to plan accordingly.

When you enter a women's or a men's room, you are accepting a different expectation about the space. The argument that unisex spaces are fine doesn't really address who should be in segregated spaces. It does make an argument that segregated spaces are not necessary at all (at least in the specific case of bathrooms).

In the future, I expect that unisex bathrooms will become more common and maybe eventually the rule rather than the exception. But I think it will be a gradual thing. It's hard to ask elderly people to accept something that they have been taught was improper for their entire lives.
 
Your claim now is that reality does not make sense. Hope that works out well for you.

My claim is that "reality" is not a specific policy that arises from your appeal to emotion. It's not even a sensical answer to the question. Reality doesn't arise from the scenarios you presented. It's the other way around.

Reality makes a lot of sense. Just not as an answer to a question about specific policies.

And your scenarios have no relation to the specific policy questions we're debating in this thread. They're not even really relevant to the general question of whether transwomen are women.

What specific policies would you like to see enacted, regarding trans access to sex-segregated spaces and communities (e.g., women's locker rooms, women's sports)?
 
I agree with this point. The question then is why do some people regard removing the requirement for meaningless paper pushing as a threat? Because this is what opponents of Self-ID are saying, if they agree with your statement above.

I think this reverses the causality.

The threat is from self-id as the sole standard. The threat is mitigated if self-id has to be independently confirmed by a medical professional in their professional capacity.

If the medical confirmation is simply a bureaucratic formality and not a true independent confirmation of the claim, then it doesn't really mitigate the threat of self-id. It ends up being a BS facade to make people think there's some kind of rigor, and not just self-id as such.

Nobody's arguing that removing meaningless paper-pushing is a threat, I don't think. People are arguing that meaningless paper-pushing doesn't mitigate the threat. And people are arguing that removing true independent medical confirmation is a threat.

Which of those three policies do you prefer to see enacted?

Pure self-id? Self-id plus bureaucratic rubber stamp? Self-id plus independent medical verification?

Or do you prefer some other policy not listed above?
 
But what is the problem with it. Do you think I would forget to pee and grab the woman? Do you think she would lose her mind and grab my plod? What?

Would it be a horrible calamity if bathrooms and/or other sex segregated areas became unisex? I don't really know. I suppose not. Probably. That's really not the point, though.


What I know is that most people don't want that, and especially most women do not want that. In my evolution of thought on this topic, I eventually reached the point where I decided that I would support maintaining sex based segregation as long as that was what was desired by most women. In private institutions, like the boutique eatery you described, the owners or managers ought to be free to have other policies, and consumers can vote on those policies via their pocketbooks, choosing to patronize or not based on their comfort levels with the policies.

So, I'm kind of indifferent about it, but I won't demand that those people who are not indifferent justify their opinion. In other words, I won't tell the women who seem to want locker rooms to exist, but seem to want me to stay out of theirs, that unless they justify their position, locker rooms will not be segregated in the future.

To put it more starkly, if a teenage girl doesn't want to take her clothes off next to a guy, I'm not going to tell her she's wrong.
 
I will echo Ziggurat's observation. If that was your intent, your words failed to convey that intent.

Now I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole where we dissect a series of posts so we can figure out whether or not someone actually said something. What has happened here is the very common phenomenon where people spend lots of time arguing about what people said or didn't say. Instead, I'll just express my opinion on the topic of self-declaration. (Note: I used that term instead of "self-id" so that there is no confusion about the specifics of the UK law. I am not talking about a UK law. I'm talking about a general concept.)

If a person who is a biological female declares herself to be a man, or a biological male declares himself to be a woman, that self-declaration should be utterly irrelevant for any legal purpose.

Any legal recognition of transgender status that would convey any sort of privilege, right, or treatment associated with the opposite sex has to be part of a process involving medical diagnosis and/or procedures, in which medical professionals exercise their professional judgement. The specifics are too complicated to deal with at this moment, but I'm willing to share my opinions if asked.

Fair enough, I'm a bit tired today so I will happily accept that maybe I could have expressed the point better.

In my view there are two coherent positions on this.

1. The involvement of doctors in the gender change process is useful and important, and therefore must be maintained.

2. The involvement of doctors in the gender change process is not useful or important and therefore has no value and can be scrapped.

My first point is that it is incoherent to argue that the involvement of doctors is worthless while also insisting it is important to maintain that involvement. Can we agree on that point of logic?

If you want my view on the issue I think there are two separate things.

Doctors are medical professionals. If you want a medical diagnosis and access to treatment options then you need to involve doctors. If for nothing else then at least to ensure that your own decisions on treatment are informed ones.

The process of legally changing your gender is not a medical procedure. It's a legal one. That being the case I believe there is a strong argument to separate the two things and demedicalise the gender change process.

That's not to say there can't be any restrictions put on it - for example you might have a different set of rules for people with a history of sexual or violent crimes.

And then there are going to be more rules on top of that for things like top level sport.

You know ... from my point of view I'm not even that bothered if people want doctors involved and oppose Self-ID if they are then prepared to accept the outcome of the process. But it's clear that some people (some on this thread) are not playing fair on that. They want to make it as difficult as possible to legally change gender and then still insisting that even if you do then there is still no requirement to treat anyone as their new gender in any place that it would matter. (or even in some cases where it shouldn't matter).

For some it's simply all about opposing anything that would give transpeople more rights. So let's not pretend that isn't what they are doing and certainly let's not pretend that this is a mainstream view or even left of centre on the issue.
 
What I know is that most people don't want that, and especially most women do not want that. In my evolution of thought on this topic, I eventually reached the point where I decided that I would support maintaining sex based segregation as long as that was what was desired by most women..

You keep saying that. But you have shown no way of reliably deciding what most people or most women want. As far as I can tell you are prepared to accept the voice of 1 high school girl as representing what women want (providing they agree with you, it seems you would not accept 1 high school girl saying that she DOES want transwomen to access the locker room as reason to allow access).

In other words it seems that your standard is that you are prepared to allow access to transwomen to sex-segregated spaces as long as NOONE objects.

Can you see why this might be unreasonable when we KNOW that some people are going to object to transpeople on principle regardless? it seems that you have basically handed trans rights over to the worst bigot we can find in any given situation.
 
Fair enough, I'm a bit tired today so I will happily accept that maybe I could have expressed the point better.

In my view there are two coherent positions on this.

1. The involvement of doctors in the gender change process is useful and important, and therefore must be maintained.

2. The involvement of doctors in the gender change process is not useful or important and therefore has no value and can be scrapped.

My first point is that it is incoherent to argue that the involvement of doctors is worthless while also insisting it is important to maintain that involvement. Can we agree on that point of logic?

Yes. Agreed.
 
Fair enough, I'm a bit tired today so I will happily accept that maybe I could have expressed the point better.

In my view there are two coherent positions on this.

1. The involvement of doctors in the gender change process is useful and important, and therefore must be maintained.

2. The involvement of doctors in the gender change process is not useful or important and therefore has no value and can be scrapped.

3. The involvement of doctors in the gender change process has to be a true independent medical evaluation, in order to be useful and important. If it's just a rubber stamp on self-id, without medical significance, it should either:
a. be altered to be an independent medical evaluation; or else
b. be scrapped
 
The way I see it, Some sort of official documentation in which gender is listed on an ID/Driver's License gives a trans-gender person a response if someone challenges their access.

If we are to have segregated spaces, there has to be some means of enforcing that segregation or they aren't really segregated. This means that the owners of that space need to be able to say "Hey, I don't think you are in the right space."

If the owner can't do that or if the owner has to accept the word of the person in question in response, then the only force of enforcement is the honor system. Unfortunately, not everyone is honorable. There are those who will break the trust.

Historically, it has been an honor system, but the owner of the space had the ability to eject people believed to be violating the honor system. I think it falls under trespassing rather than any law specifically about segregated spaces.

If access is a right based on self declaration the owner of the space can no longer use their own judgment, as attempting to invoke the trespassing law would be a rights violation. So in order to have a means of enforcement, there would have to be a means of verification. (It occurs to me that this opens the door to a new grifter scam.)

An ID is a way of providing verification. I can't think of another way to allow both the definition of access as a right and allow the removal of those who should not have access.

Another argument is that we don't need to enforce access, but that sounds more like an argument for unisex spaces to me.

I think people have pointed out that there are laws against bad behavior that would apply. But a lot of that comes down to one person's word vs. the other because, short of physical assault, the undesirable behaviors are in private areas with no physical evidence and few witnesses.

"They were peeping at me!"
"No, I wasn't!"
"Yes, you were!"
"Prove it!"

How do you resolve that? The accused could be doing wrong. Or not. The accuser could be a bigot making something up to harass. Or not.

A few thoughts on this...

1. I'm not sure it's going to be practical for say a gym owner to introduce a birth certificate check for every registered member - so in effect the default has to be self-id/honour system anyway.

2. Not sure how far back we are going in 'having a right to eject people' but you are going to have to tread very carefully around anti-discrimination laws to eject people or even ID check people as things stand currently.

3. The laws against bad behaviour may be difficult to enforce in some respects but this is a general feature of laws against bad behaviour. If we are talking about a private gym though I would imagine that the owners have significant leeway to exclude people who appear to be creating issues provided they can show a justification if called on it. Like everything else though they leave themselves open to a lawsuit if they are careless.
 
You keep saying that. But you have shown no way of reliably deciding what most people or most women want. As far as I can tell you are prepared to accept the voice of 1 high school girl as representing what women want (providing they agree with you, it seems you would not accept 1 high school girl saying that she DOES want transwomen to access the locker room as reason to allow access).

In other words it seems that your standard is that you are prepared to allow access to transwomen to sex-segregated spaces as long as NOONE objects.

Can you see why this might be unreasonable when we KNOW that some people are going to object to transpeople on principle regardless? it seems that you have basically handed trans rights over to the worst bigot we can find in any given situation.

Ok. Let me rephrase that. It is my belief, based on survey results, casual interactions and discussions on the subject, electoral outcomes in situations where the subject arises, and behavior of businesses who cater to the perceived demands of their clients, that most people want sex-based segregation, and this is even more common in women than in men.

If I could be persuaded that this is not the case, then I would bow to the will of the majority.

And of course, there has been such warping of the language that even the above could be misunderstood, so I'll restate it again.

From my observations, it seems the overwhelming majority of people want to maintain separate men's and women's changing rooms and restrooms.

It is my observation that a somewhat smaller majority of people in the United States want to base access to men's and women's segregated spaces to be based on anatomy, although there is some willingness to compromise in some situations.

If I could be persuaded that those are not the majority views, I would be willing to bow to the will of the majority, either in eliminating sex based segregation entirely, or by allowing access to segregated spaces to be based on "gender", using the modern meaning of that term.
 
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Yes. Agreed.

Then it is my understanding that it is the view of at least one vociferous poster on this thread that Self-ID is a bad thing (it is important to maintain the involvement of doctors in the process) and that the medical involvement is worthless because they can't or won't say no to any request.

Therefore my conclusion is that posters who make these two points are being incoherent and that their arguments are driven not by logic but by prejudice.
 
Then it is my understanding that it is the view of at least one vociferous poster on this thread that Self-ID is a bad thing (it is important to maintain the involvement of doctors in the process) and that the medical involvement is worthless because they can't or won't say no to any request.

Therefore my conclusion is that posters who make these two points are being incoherent and that their arguments are driven not by logic but by prejudice.

I don't think you've understood what that specific poster was saying, but trying to go back and sort it all out would require going down that rabbit hole.

I'm pretty sure I understood what she was saying, and it made sense to me.
 
A few thoughts on this...

1. I'm not sure it's going to be practical for say a gym owner to introduce a birth certificate check for every registered member - so in effect the default has to be self-id/honour system anyway.

On first pass, sure.

"Females only, I'm afraid."

"Oh, sorry. Can you recommend a good co-ed or males' gym around here?"
Versus

"Females only, I'm afraid."

"As a transwoman, I'm an honorary female, entitled to be here by law and custom."

"Great! Come back with your official government ID confirming your status, and we'll sign you right up!"
Versus

"Females only, I'm afraid."

"I am female, actually."

"Great! Come back with your official government ID confirming your status, and we'll sign you right up!"
 
Then it is my understanding that it is the view of at least one vociferous poster on this thread that Self-ID is a bad thing (it is important to maintain the involvement of doctors in the process) and that the medical involvement is worthless because they can't or won't say no to any request.
I haven't seen that view, but I have seen this one:

* Self-id alone shouldn't be the standard. It should be backed up by independent medical review.

* Any medical involvement that isn't an independent review of self-id, but just a rubber stamp on self-id, is worthless.
 
On first pass, sure.

"Females only, I'm afraid."

"Oh, sorry. Can you recommend a good co-ed or males' gym around here?"
Versus

"Females only, I'm afraid."

"As a transwoman, I'm an honorary female, entitled to be here by law and custom."

"Great! Come back with your official government ID confirming your status, and we'll sign you right up!"
Versus

"Females only, I'm afraid."

"I am female, actually."

"Great! Come back with your official government ID confirming your status, and we'll sign you right up!"
Or perhaps have it when anyone joins a gym they have to provide ID that shows their official gender?
 
It is now the law in California that prisoners are to be housed based on their self proclaimed gender identity. Their request to be housed based on their gender identity can only be denied for “management or security concerns.”

http://https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/518459-newsom-signs-law-allowing-transgender-inmates-to-be-placed-in-prison-by

I said on Facebook how California may be burning down all around us right now, but at least our state government is upholding our rights when the federal government refuses to.

This is a great thing and is exactly the kind of policy I support when it comes to us transpeople in prisons. Hopefully I will never have to benefit, but the way us BLM protesters are being arrested more and more lately, who knows?
 
It is now the law in California that prisoners are to be housed based on their self proclaimed gender identity. Their request to be housed based on their gender identity can only be denied for “management or security concerns.”

http://https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/518459-newsom-signs-law-allowing-transgender-inmates-to-be-placed-in-prison-by

Your link doesn't work for me, but here's the bill itself:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200SB132

Pretty short and to the point. It's a pure self-id bill, with no independent medical review.

It does include a couple interesting caveats/loopholes, though:

(b) If the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation has management or security concerns with an incarcerated individual’s search preference pursuant to paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) or preferred housing placement pursuant to paragraph (3) of subdivision (a), the Secretary of the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, or the secretary’s designee, shall, before denying a search preference or housing the incarcerated individual in a manner contrary to the person’s preferred housing placement, certify in writing a specific and articulable basis why the department is unable to accommodate that search or housing preference.

This may mean that prison officials will still have leeway to deny cismales housing in women's facilities on the basis that the inmate in question is obviously playing silly buggers to get into the women's prison. I'm sure prison administrators are already drafting a template with the correct wording to satisfy the law.

It may also mean that prison officials still have leeway to do female cavity searches on females who identify as men. It probably doesn't mean that they have leeway to (try to) do female cavity searches on males who identify as women.
 
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