Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[cullennz]

The Mandalorian star Gina Carano has been accused of “mocking trans people” after putting the words “boop/bob/beep” in her Twitter bio in lieu of pronouns.

https://www.nme.com/news/tv/the-man...carano-fired-for-mocking-trans-people-2752622

These type of stories make me thankful I am not on Twitter.

 

[JihadJane]

Okay, let's accept this as a starting point. What is it that cisgender women and transgender have in common? What are the characteristics and attributes of the set of women to which we both belong, but which are NOT shared with the set of men?

I've literally been asking this question in every discussion about this topic for years and I have yet to have gotten an answer.

 

[cullennz]

[emoji23]

 

[JihadJane]

TERFs and the religious right are increasingly finding common ground, probably because they are realizing their views ultimately come from the same place. An outdated view of feminism and gender that does nothing but repress people.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/radic...christians-team-up-against-transgender-people

It's easier for people whose brains haven't been addled by postmodern queer theory to see through transgenderism's nonsense.

The majority of "TERFS" in the UK are left wing.

'TERF' is a misogynist slur, often deployed alongside death and rape threats or simply most-vulnerable-group-in-the world punch threats. It's the progressive equivalent of calling women ***** or bitches.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Do you mean join forces operationally to achieve a common end, or merely have the same common end but not work together?

The former. Anyone that would let the ADF take up their legal case has extremely poor moral judgement. Even if your interests happen to align on very narrow issues, it shows poor character to become the poster child of a bigoted legal advocacy organization.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Either of you care to actually comment on some of the statements made in that quote and how they relate to discussion here? I get it, outrage is fun and all, but this being a skeptics forum (at least it should be) let's focus on the argumentation, reasoning, and fallacious thinking parts. I've highlighted some points that I think are quite relevant to the discussion as it takes place in this thread:

It matters that bigoted advocacy legal groups are involved because it's necessary context for why two high school track athletes are somehow a pressing social issue worthy of endless panic mongering and woe about the end of life as we know it.

How many pages are going to spent on the the evils of trans people? The amount of pearl clutching seen on this forum, you'd think trans people were practically the modern day equivalent of the mongol horde on the horizon, rather than an extremely small portion of the population that are seeking minor accommodation. Either it's this story of two high school track athletes in the suburbs, or the the evil of a mediocre MMA fighter, or the horror of a trans woman using a sauna at a pool. HORROR, SHOCK, DANGER, DOOM. WOE BEFALL ALL MANKIND.

The inclusion of the ADF in this story is relevant when it comes to understanding the scale of reactionary backlash to civil right protections for trans people. The ADF goes around the country collecting up horror stories of the evils of trans people, mostly trans women, and tries to drum up panic and fear to achieve their bigoted ends. They whip up the fervor against trans people and blow these issues way of proportion, desperately trying to turn some minor local scandal into a wedge issue to advocate their Christian-supremacist world view on the national level.

I would humbly suggest that so-called skeptics try not to be such willing suckers to these obvious tactics.

Perhaps a skeptics forum is not the appropriate place to discuss social issues and who is worthy of civil rights protections. You can't "facts and logic" your way around such problems, and what the divide comes down to here is often one of irreconcilable moral judgement which are not susceptible to a skeptical approach.

Or you can just throw your hands in the air and declare those that don't agree with you as ideologues bordering on religious extremists. You know, the skeptical thing, declaratory ad-hom.

 

[lionking]

It matters that bigoted advocacy legal groups are involved because it's necessary context for why two high school track athletes are somehow a pressing social issue worthy of endless panic mongering and woe about the end of life as we know it.

How many pages are going to spent on the the evils of trans people? The amount of pearl clutching seen on this forum, you'd think trans people were practically the modern day equivalent of the mongol horde on the horizon, rather than an extremely small portion of the population that are seeking minor accommodation.

The inclusion of the ADF in this story is relevant when it comes to understanding the scale of reactionary backlash to civil right protections for trans people. The ADF goes around the country collecting up horror stories of the evils of trans people, mostly trans women, and tries to drum up panic and fear to achieve their bigoted ends.

Perhaps a skeptics forum is not the appropriate place to discuss social issues and who is worthy of civil rights protections. You can't "facts and logic" your way around such problems, and what the divide comes down to here is often one of irreconcilable moral judgement which are not susceptible to a skeptical approach.

Or you can just throw your hands in the air and declare those that don't agree with you as ideologues bordering on religious extremists. You know, the skeptical thing, declaratory ad-hom.

Your continued dismissal of each and every objection of to demands of trans activists (access to women’s sports, locker rooms, toilets, women’s shelters, scholarships etc etc) as bigoted and transphobic is extremely tiresome. You might think you will win through persistence. And you just might win this little battle.

But it will be a Pyrrhic victory. People giving up because you and others won’t listen to them, and they then decide they have better things to do, doesn’t make you right.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Your continued dismissal of each and every objection of to demands of trans activists (access to women’s sports, locker rooms, toilets, women’s shelters, scholarships etc etc) as bigoted and transphobic is extremely tiresome. You might think you will win through persistence. And you just might win this little battle.

But it will be a Pyrrhic victory. People giving up because you and others won’t listen to them, and they then decide they have better things to do, doesn’t make you right.

I too grow tired of going around the same circles with TERFs and their useful idiots. Luckily, I think your assessment is right. Larger yet, the bigots are losing all the battles. Civil rights protections for trans people are growing, and is already codified into law in some more civilized nations. It's only a matter of time.

I don't really care if the bigots come around, so long as their bigotry doesn't carry the weight of law anymore, I'm satisfied.

 

[d4m10n]

Doping scandals have nothing to do with the topic of trans women competing in women's sport categories

There is the possibility of analogy, though. Had Chelsea Mitchell taken to trouble to artificially enhance her testosterone levels to those enjoyed by her male bodied competitors, she'd have been in violation of the rules against performance enhancing drugs.

 

[cullennz]

This all misses the biggies of course.

I mean why can't trans women take up spaces on waiting lists for tubal ligation. Mammogram tests and smear tests.

I mean they have every right to take the spaces. Cos they are like ... you know. Really women.

I'm sure the other non trans women won't mind.

 

[lionking]

I too grow tired of going around the same circles with TERFs and their useful idiots. Luckily, I think your assessment is right. Larger yet, the bigots are losing all the battles. Civil rights protections for trans people are growing, and is already codified into law in some more civilized nations. It's only a matter of time.

I don't really care if the bigots come around, so long as their bigotry doesn't carry the weight of law anymore, I'm satisfied.

Proving my point nicely. Dismissing posts by women and others who express concern about some of the privileges sought by trans activists as bigots and TERFs? Well done.

And your wish for all these sought privileges to be enshrined in law is very far from achieved. As others have pointed out, bad laws are often passed, but then thrown in the dust bin. You declaration of “victory” is quite ridiculous.

 

[Darat]

This all misses the biggies of course.

I mean why can't trans women take up spaces on waiting lists for tubal ligation. Mammogram tests and smear tests.

I mean they have every right to take the spaces. Cos they are like ... you know. Really women.

I'm sure the other non trans women won't mind.

I don't know about your country but medical procedures done in the NHSs are based on medical need. If a woman (no matter what definition you use) doesn't have tubes to be tied she won't be referred to have her non-existent tubes tied.

 

[cullennz]

I don't know about your country but medical procedures done in the NHSs are based on medical need. If a woman (no matter what definition you use) doesn't have tubes to be tied she won't be referred to have her non-existent tubes tied.

Admittedly it was the Sun

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/53410...-invited-for-cervical-smear-without-a-cervix/

 

[cullennz]

And just a quick question.

Does the NHS records show someone is actually a dude when they rock up to ED? If they change their birth certificate.

As it kind of helps with treating them.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Proving my point nicely. Dismissing posts by women and others who express concern about some of the privileges sought by trans activists as bigots and TERFs? Well done.

And your wish for all these sought privileges to be enshrined in law is very far from achieved. As others have pointed out, bad laws are often passed, but then thrown in the dust bin. You declaration of “victory” is quite ridiculous.

You forget useful idiots. Not all the opponents are bigots, but the bigots find them quite useful. The ADF rolls into town on their crusade to restore 3rd century morality and has no trouble finding allies.

I would humbly suggest that finding yourself in alliance with Christian supremacists is time for some introspection.

 

[Arcade22]

So you don't think that trans women are women?

Excluding transwomen and certain people with intersex conditions from competing in some "women's sports" is done because of a desire to maintain a "level playing field".

Although formally speaking they are segregated by sex, i honestly don't think it's any different from segregating people because of their weight in boxing for example. Due to the extent of how sexually dimorphic humans are, males can generally reach a higher level of physical strength and endurance than females. They also can do so easier.

As such, I don't think it's unfair for even females to be made to compete in the male category if they have such physiological characteristics that it would be deemed unfair for them to compete in the female one.

 

[lionking]

Excluding transwomen and certain people with intersex conditions from competing in some "women's sports" is done because of a desire to maintain a "level playing field".

Although formally speaking they are segregated by sex, i honestly don't think it's any different from segregating people because of their weight in boxing for example.
As such, I don't think it's unfair for even females to be made to compete in the male category if they have such physiological characteristics that it would be deemed unfair for them to compete in the female one.

You seem to support women welterweights fighting male welterweights. Please tell me this isn’t true.

 

[MisAndreG]

Loving the JKR hate.

TRAs who love to pester women who aren’t totally on board with their ideology with the refrain trans women are not just men in dresses are now mad about JKR writing a story about a bad man in a dress ... because bad men in dresses are trans women? :/

You guys are just telling on yourselves. YOU don’t even believe your nonsense

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Loving the JKR hate.

TRAs who love to pester women who aren’t totally on board with their ideology with the refrain trans women are not just men in dresses are now mad about JKR writing a story about a bad man in a dress ... because bad men in dresses are trans women? :/

You guys are just telling on yourselves. YOU don’t even believe your nonsense

The telegraph's review only briefly mentions it. Overall their review claims that the book is "meh" and probably too long and lacks some of the secret sauce of the earlier books in the acclaimed series. Not really an indictment, book series can't be good forever.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's not really a rabbit hole I think this thread needs to go down but do we actually know anything about this J.K. Rowling book outside of the fact that "Killer who poses as a woman in a dress" occurs as a plot point at some point in it and the anti-trans controversy is pretty much the only time J.K. has been in news post Harry Potter outside of that reveal of her using a pen-name?