Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, as a man, he belongs with other men. If there were issues with that logistically that's another issue, but it would be discrimination to list his gender as "female" and put him in the women's prison.

That seems dangerous to me. You'd be putting someone who is anatomically female in with a lot of male people, in a system that is already rife with sexual assaults and rapes. If he requested to be put in the male ward, that's one thing, but I would definitely not make that a blanket approach.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't know how far abbadon's son has transitioned, but you can't think that a bunch of women would want someone who is indistinguishable from a cis man just with a vagina instead of a penis in with them either.

Well, it might be worth asking the people who are female what their opinion on the matter is, rather than assuming it based on your imagination, yes?

When this topic came up previously, I believe that all of the non-trans women in the thread agreed that a transman should be put in the female ward as a default, and that transwomen should be put in the male ward as default. I think most of us were willing to allow fully surgically transitioned transwomen into the female ward. And I believe I recall that most of us were willing to allow fully surgically transitioned transmen to stay in the female ward as well.

It's not perfectly fair and even... but it is caring and compassionate, and recognizes the risk of sexual assault as a real thing worth of considerartion.

 

[Emily's Cat]

duplicate post

 

[Emily's Cat]

As long as the women know he has no penis...it is A-OK.
Woman WITH penis = nervous trust til something happens.

Any other women want the chime in on how scared you would be at sharing prison space with a man that has a vagina? vs a woman with a penis?

I know the result (as a generalization at least- some women can be crazy dangerous) but the obvious answers arent always knows to men.

Transman with a Vagina? Yep, fine by me.

Transman with a neophallus? Also fine by me. Might get some funny looks, but given that such penises require manual intervention to make them rape-ready, I don't think there's much in the way of material risk.

Transwoman with a neovagina? Unless they've got a history of sexual assault and violence, I'm fine with that too.

Transwoman with a penis? Not unless you can provide some extremely compelling evidence to support them being in a female ward and not representing any danger or increased risk to the women there.

 

[The Atheist]

Yet body dysphoria is counted as a disorder and gender dysphoria now isn't?

Most trans women tend to hate their penis and would like to have it surgically removed.

Some people with body dysphoria hate their legs and would to have them surgically removed.

Spot the difference!

 

[Emily's Cat]

If I were to speak about women in general, both cis and trans, I would just use women. But when distinguishing between us, it is helpful. The problem is that you still see us as men, so when you make the distinction between women and trans women, you are really saying real women vs. fake women.

Well, harsh as it sounds... yes. It is real women versus men who want to be women. I know that's not kind, and it's not gender affirming, but it is reality. If you can fool me well enough that I don't perceive you as a male, I'm perfectly fine with treating you as a woman in every sense of the term. If you can't pass that well though, I'm sorry, but I can't fake my perception. I can't feel your internal feelings. I can only base my reactions on how I perceive you to be. And a great many transwomen simply are not women by any reasonable and relatable meaning of the term.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I do think maybe I have had trouble really understanding, you are right.

Even though I didn't see myself as a man for most of my life, the fact is I did present as a man (or at least attempted to), and therefore was treated as one. I never had to deal with the inherent danger of being a woman until the past few years. And even after having a number of instances of men thinking they can do whatever they want with me without my consent, my friend still has to remind me before I put myself in certain situations to be careful because I am a woman now and I will be treated differently because of that.

And maybe because I was never really sexually attracted to women before meant I could never see women as sexual objects and see the potential danger from that perspective like some of my lesbian trans friends.

If I'm coming off as too defensive and insensitive, I apologize.

Thank you for this post. I can understand being defensive - most of the women in this thread are defensive as well.

This is a conflict of desires and rights. There is no easy solution. There is no easy answer. There needs to be some degree of compromise - and that means compromise on both sides of the debate.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, but men are much more honest with each other about their real thoughts and feelings in certain situations. Or like Trump and his supporters like to put it: Locker room talk.

And since I didn't share their feelings towards women, it made it very awkward for me. I just stayed quiet, and I regret that.

This is an interesting slight derail. What you note above is something that has also been noted by a lot of transmen. There's a recurring theme among the experiences of transmen, that they knew there was sexism in the world when they were presenting as women... but they didn't really understand exactly how much there was until they were accepted as men. There's a lot of stuff that men don't say around women, but that they also don't really recognize as being sexist and screwed up. Lots of men (#notallmen) engage in that locker room talk, but only around other men as a matter of social convention. I think a lot of men (#notallmen) would be shocked at how horrible it sounds to women.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The fact that there are transwomen who call themselves women, and transmen who call themselves men, disproves that calling yourself "woman" perfectly clearly communicates that you are not trans.

The fact that some people call themselves some particular term doesn't actually make them that term.

I have a friend whose hair is blonde at the root. She dyes her hair, and has been for years. She refers to herself as a redhead. She thinks of herself as a redhead. She hates being thought of as blonde. She identifies as a redhead.

I think it's ridiculous to refer to her as trans-redhead, and refer to people whose hair is red at the root as cis-redhead. There's no way around the actual objective fact that my friend is blonde, irrespective of her feelings about the matter. Her insistence on calling herself a redhead doesn't invalidate the entire concept of redheads and make it one that by definition includes blondes.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Apologies.

That was harsh.

But the people who have the issue are females.

Dudes don't give a crap.
I'll happily support not wanting dudes who decide they are female in their well earned spaces, but at the end of the day men don't run them. Females do.

I dunno. I feel like the most vocally aggressive TRAs in this thread have been blokes. The actual transperson in this thread is much less antagonistic and hateful than the male supporters are. So I'm going to have to call foul on your claim that dudes don't care.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is the orthodox answer according to second wave feminism, to be sure, but I'm trying to get the intersectionalist perspective from someone who ought to know.

I don't think it's second wave feminism or anything of the sort. It's reality.

There is nothing anatomical or biological that women have in common with transwomen, except those things that are common to all humans. There is almost nothing experiential that women have in common with most transwomen, except those things that are common to all human. There is nothing inherent in the formation of our brains that is common between women and transwomen except those things that are common to all humans.

There *may* be some plasticity effects in common between women and transwomen who have been presenting as women for an extended period of time, and there *may* be some experiential elements in common for transwomen who have been successfully passing as women for an extended period of time. There *may* be some biological commonalities between women and transwomen who have undergone hormone therapy for an extended period of time.

But absent considerable intervention, there is nothing inherent that is common between women and transwomen that are not also common between women and men.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

The fact that some people call themselves some particular term doesn't actually make them that term.

I have a friend whose hair is blonde at the root. She dyes her hair, and has been for years. She refers to herself as a redhead. She thinks of herself as a redhead. She hates being thought of as blonde. She identifies as a redhead.

I think it's ridiculous to refer to her as trans-redhead, and refer to people whose hair is red at the root as cis-redhead. There's no way around the actual objective fact that my friend is blonde, irrespective of her feelings about the matter. Her insistence on calling herself a redhead doesn't invalidate the entire concept of redheads and make it one that by definition includes blondes.

Quite, the correct terms for hair are natural blonde and bottle blonde, cis and trans is for gender only. Also something about carpets and curtains.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No one is asking you to use "cis" in contexts where conveying that information is not a meaningful part of the sentence. No one is asking to replace ALL use of the word women with "trans women" or "cis women" the modifiers are ONLY for when you need to make the distinction. When you don't we can call them all women.

Except for when there is pressure to use terms like "people with cervixes" or "menstruators". You know, because the term "women" in those contexts isn't clear, and could include people with penises.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I dont hear anything like that coming from the gay community.

Oddly, what I hear from the gay and lesbian communities is a regression in attitudes toward homosexuality. There seems to be a surprising amount of pressure for gay men to transition to be transwomen, which makes them not gay. Similar for lesbians. Add to that the accusations of bigotry toward women who don't want to be penetrated by a "lady penis" and well... that's where we're at.

 

[Boudicca90]

Well, harsh as it sounds... yes. It is real women versus men who want to be women. I know that's not kind, and it's not gender affirming, but it is reality. If you can fool me well enough that I don't perceive you as a male, I'm perfectly fine with treating you as a woman in every sense of the term. If you can't pass that well though, I'm sorry, but I can't fake my perception. I can't feel your internal feelings. I can only base my reactions on how I perceive you to be. And a great many transwomen simply are not women by any reasonable and relatable meaning of the term.

And that is the impasse we have, your own prejudices.

Despite trying to come off as more caring and understanding than posters like Rolfe and JihadJane, you ultimately share their views and their willingness to discriminate against us because of them. When we spoke before, I thought there was some hope that having a personal connection to someone who is transgender would help you to understand us better and become more accepting, but I was clearly wrong.

We will never be women to you, instead we just have to "fool you" well enough for you to be ignorant of our presence enough to tolerate us. There will never be a compromise with someone with that view, because we will always be invaders in your eyes.

I am a woman, just like you. You may not consider me to be so, but the government does and that is far more important. We have been with you already for a long time, and we are not going away.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Mostly blogs and articles which would take a lot of time to sift through to recall which and where.

The main one I have in mind is from my State of Calif. It was recommendations for education of children by the " Board of Educators". I swear, there were words in there I had to look up because they were like intersectional gobbledygook. the gender stuff of course made its appearance but most was racial.
I can't seem to find it now since there is so much and I do not recall the date. It was recent, but pre-covid. I'll try harder to find it!!
It was quite shocking. Makes me appreciate the private education system. I'd sell my blood every week to keep my kid there if I had to (and I might...eventually!).

Might be Seattle - the school board there has gone far down the "critical theory" rabbithole, including pushing the idea that math is a tool of racial oppression and is inherently racist.

TBH, Seattle has lost it's damned mind about a LOT of things in the last decade. I'm surprisingly glad that I no longer live in WA, even though I miss the green things and the foggy mornings.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No. Some ciswomen might.

Yes.

Yes.

In the "West" that is already the norm. Always has been.

No.

Except for the multiple cases that we've already discussed where the transwomen in question took no pains to hide their male genitalia (even when around underage females), or tried to force people to wax their "female" penis and scrotum, or proudly proclaim that their beards are "womanly"...

 

[Emily's Cat]

Exactly. I don't use urinals and never liked using them in the first place, I've always preferred to sit down to pee. And yes, I am ashamed of having a penis and I don't want anybody knowing what genitals I have.

I have no problem with getting rid of my penis, and I know my life would be easier if I had a vagina, but I have cost and safety concerns about the surgery which keeps me on the fence.

This is a very personal question, and if you prefer not to answer, that's perfectly alright.

Why would you be ashamed of having a penis? Why would that be a source of shame?

And why do you think your life would be easier if you had a vagina?

From my perspective, life would be easier if I had a penis for two reasons: I could pee standing up on the side of the road, and no more periods. Both of those are matters of convenience and comfort, and neither of them have anything to do with my identity or how other people perceive me.

On the other hand, body shame is something I do not understand at all. My body is what it is. I'm a bit embarrassed at how chubby I've become in my late 40s... but I'm not ashamed of it. I'm self-conscious of the many chin-hairs that have sprung up as I approach menopause, but I'm not ashamed of them. Shame, to me, is something you feel when you have done something wrong. My body is my body, and it's largely outside of my control. I didn't do anything wrong, hell nature didn't do anything wrong. It just is.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Okay, just one more Venn diagram. Hopefully much less confusing that the last one, which received ample justifiable criticism.

View attachment 43000

Okay, so the very dark intersection in the middle is going to be the set of traits common to just about all human beings, e.g. lungs, shoulders, knees, toes, linguistic ability, etc. Nothing much to fret over here.

The dark blue-to-purplish bit will be the physical attributes we normally associate with human females, e.g. cervices, ova, uteri, etc.

The green bit is the part that I keep asking about, and the best answer I've seen so far is that both kinds of women have a "gender identity" which makes them feel like they ought to be seen to be female by themselves and others. One major problem with this is that many women (who have no objection to being seen as such) do not necessarily have a strong sense of subjective gender identity, and may indeed see gender as something socially imposed upon them rather than something inherent to their sense of self.

Bingo.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gender identity is all about how you see yourself and your gender, it is subjective and not something socially imposed (that would be more like gender roles and presentation).

Alright. Let's take this as a starting point.

Gender Identity is NOT sex. It is NOT gender roles. It is NOT presentation.

With that said... what does gender identity mean to you? What is it that causes you to identify as a woman? What does woman mean to you, personally, in this context?