Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

[dann]

Look at all that has been said and what has been written even in this thread. And what do we have to show for it? A cure? No. An established preventative method? No.

Oh man, what a disappointment! Here we were, posting day after day in the Let's-find-a-cure-for-Covid-19 thread, and now you tell us that we didn't succeed, we didn't find the cure!
Life is so unfair!

In the meantime, back to the Sweden's-liberal-pandemic-strategy-questioned-as-Stockholm-death-toll-mounts thread:

Monday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 6, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
[Sweden: 577 (5,837) 573* 13 *according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 108 (628) 230 3
Finland: 61 (336) 36 1
Norway: 49 (264) 74 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 5 0
Iceland has 81 active cases, Faroe Islands 4, New Zealand 118.
The Faroe Islands have 7 in quarantine, 1 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.
Only four active Covid cases - Infected Russian sailors are no longer included in the Faroese Covid statistics (KVF.fo, Sep. 7, 2020)


Nye restriktioner i 18 kommuner: Forsamlingsforbud sænkes fra 100 til 50 (DR.dk, Sep. 7, 2020)
New restrictions in 18 municipalities: the size of crowds lowered from 100 to 50 17 of those municipalities are in the Copenhagen region. And the opening hours of bars will be 12:00 midnight instead of 2:00. People are encouraged to postpone private parties. At one private birthday party, 30 participants got infected.

Minister bekymret – borgmester har indkaldt kriseledelse (TV2.dk, Sep. 7, 2020)
Minister worried – mayor (of Copenhagen) calls in crisis management group Young people are encounraged to stop going to pirate parties, avoid yelling at each other up close and avoid hugging.

Yderligere tre minkfarme ramt af coronavirus (TV2.dk, Sep. 7, 2020 – 14:59)
Three more mink farms infected with coronavirus All three in the same area (Hjørring) as the ones reported earlier

Av 100 000 norrmän har 1,4 smittade registrerats varje dag under de senaste sju dagarna – i Sverige är samma siffra 1,1 per 100 000 invånare. Detta skriver NRK om idag.
Coronan ökar snabbare i Norge än i Sverige (SVT.se, Sep. 7, 2020)

Of 100,000 Norwegians, 1.4 infections were registered daily in the last seven days – in Sweden, the same number is 1.1 of 100,000. According to NRK.no today.
The coronavirus increases faster in Norway than in Sweden - However, the Swedish article doesn’t mention that Norway’s slightly higher number ”kan blant anna skuldast at vi testar meir enn før” = ’among other things may be due to the fact that we (= Norway) are testing more now.’

 

[Rolfe]

The equivalent number in Scotland is 2.8. I'm not comfortable with this at all.

They've banned people from visiting other people's houses in Glasgow, Renfrewshire and Dunbartonshire, but hospitality venues are still open. If it were actually possible to ensure that hospitality venues obeyed the distancing regulations and this was properly enforced this might not be too bad, but the rumour mill says that isn't the case.

 

[Clutch Cargo]

All that we are doing (all that we dan do) is copy and paste what some media source has said or has quoted from some other source. That’s all there is and in nearly all world-event cases that’s all there ever is. That’s fine. That’s danndy. No one can blame us for that because we are naturally interested in what is happening in our world and how it affects us.

As I say, no one can blame us for that. We can, however, be blamed for treating the media news info as an up-to-date pinnacle of knowledge that supersedes all the info that was reported previously. “Today we know more than yesterday” is a fool’s crutch because we know very little. It’s all guess-work and mark my words that if (hopefully ‘when’) the whole coronavirus is sorted out and beaten we will then get all the ‘expert’ explanations about how we were wrong about this and that. So, grand-standing and playing it up as though you (we) are a quick-step authority whose pseudo knowledge is gleaned from the daily media rumours is well ….. untrustworthy.

Sweden has its theories as does every other nation. Whose theory is best … is still up for grabs and there are several factors that mere mortals employ in the appraisal shell game. Some of it is cultural and a whole lot of it is based upon political partiality and even “neighbour hating”, as one very astute fellow member describes it. “Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy” (the title of this thread, believe it or not!) has yet to be either officially condemned or vindicated. That is where we were at the beginning of this thread and that is where we are still today. All of the discussing and debating and arguing is a lot of fun but we haven’t progressed an inch into the discerning validy of “Sweden’s liberal pandemic strategy”.

Carry on.

 

[dann]

Just the day before yesterday you were cocky enough to make it a question of "simple math skills" when interpreting the numbers coming out of Belarus, but as soon as it becomes obvious how absurd those numbers are, you resort to Tegnell's excuse: 'We can't know anything.'
The poster who presented those Belarus numbers remains as "astute" as you think you are. You have contributed with nothing but obfuscation to this thread.

 

[dann]

The equivalent number in Scotland is 2.8. I'm not comfortable with this at all.

They've banned people from visiting other people's houses in Glasgow, Renfrewshire and Dunbartonshire, but hospitality venues are still open. If it were actually possible to ensure that hospitality venues obeyed the distancing regulations and this was properly enforced this might not be too bad, but the rumour mill says that isn't the case.

That is what is so infuriating about this approach: You don't go to a bar to practice social distancing, obviously. If the problem is that the owners of bars can't pay their bills, then find a way to pay those bills for them to enable them to stay closed. Considering the disease that they help spread, I can't imagine that it won't be cheaper than paying the hospital bills.
Winter is coming ...

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know why the politicians don't see this.

I'm pretty much resigned to staying isolated until the vaccine is available. Which I always thought woud be spring or summer next year, based on my experiences with similar situations in veterinary disease control.

 

[dann]

I stay away from bars, cinemas, concerts and all kinds of indoor parties with more than 10 participants. It really bugs me that I have had to give up salsa, except for outdoor salsa suelta (= without a partner). I could do with the exercise. After this month, I don't think it will be possible till May unless the vaccine gets here much earlier than expected.

Tuesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 7, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
[Sweden: 577 (5,838) 149* 13 *according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 108 (628) 243 2
Finland: 61 (336) 10 1
Norway: 49 (264) 39 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 0 0
Iceland has 76 active cases, Faroe Islands 5, New Zealand 123.
The Faroe Islands have 7 in quarantine, 1 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed. They seem to have managed to hammer it down again without any fatalities.
Hospitals open to visitors again: Masks no longer a requirement (KVF.fo, Sep. 8, 2020)

Vanskelig å sammenligne Norge og Sverige - Selv om koronasmitten i Norge nå øker mer enn i Sverige, dør det fremdeles folk daglig av korona i nabolandet vårt. (NRK.no, Sep. 7, 2020)
It’s difficult to compare Norway and Sweden – Even though the number of cases is increasing more in Norway than in Sweden, people still die every day in our neighbouring country

Smitteøkning flere steder – Norge er «rødt» (NRK.no, Sep. 8, 2020)
Increase in infections in many places – Norway is ”red”

Kontakttal stiger fra 0,9 til 1,5 (TV2.dk, Sep. 8, 2020)
The R₀ goes from 0.9 to 1.5
- Wherever possible, companies and local government offices are letting people work from home again. Every day there are reports of schools and universities sending home students and staff.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm still thinking about a visit to the cinema, but it's unusual to find more than ten people in one screen at the 14-screen cinema complex and the space is pretty large. I can also wear a respirator mask if I'm at all concerned. However, people tend mainly to sit quietly in a cinema and that isn't superspreader behaviour.

 

[dann]

I haven't yet seen cinemas mentioned in the context of super-spreader events. I went twice in the week before the lockdown in March to watch Jojo Rabbit and Parasite when there were probably more cases than there are now and nobody wore face masks, but in a discussion with my friends who recently feared that they had caught the infection at a wedding, we agreed that it isn't really worth the anxiety that you may feel after events like that.
So far, I haven't felt any anxiety at all, but I've also mostly avoided risky behavior. And I haven't heard about any films yet that I can't wait to watch until they are streamed or released on DVD.

 

[dann]

7 procent på Stockholms äldreboenden har dött i covid-19 (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 8, 2020)
7 percent in Stockholm's old people's homes have died from Covid-19

Editorial:

Har Sverige gått från skräckexempel till förebild i coronabekämpningen? Inte för den som studerar dödssiffrorna.
Nej, den svenska coronastrategin har inte plötsligt blivit en världssucces (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 7, 2020)

Did Sweden go from being a dire warning to the world to becoming a role model in the struggle against corona? Not to people who study the death toll.
No, the Swedish corona strategy didn’t suddenly turn into a world success

 

[dann]

Wedesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 9, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
[Sweden: 578 (5,842) 173* 13 *according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 108 (628) 251 5
Finland: 61 (337) 93 1
Norway: 49 (264) 61 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 3 0
Iceland has 76 active cases, Faroe Islands 5, New Zealand 125.
The Faroe Islands have 7 in quarantine, 1 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.

Detta som en protest mot att regeringen vill se ett högskoleprov i höst, trots det osäkra smittoläget. UHR och de lärosäten som anordnar provet står bakom bedömningen att det inte kan genomföras på ett säkert sätt
Karin Röding säger till tidningen att politikerna inte följt principen att lyssna till expertmyndigheterna i frågan om provet kan genomföras på ett smittsäkert sätt.
UHR:s generaldirektör Karin Röding avgår (SVT.se, Sep. 9, 2020)

In protest against the government wanting to have a university entrance exam this autumn, despite the uncertain Covid-19 infection situation. UHR (the agency in charge of universities and colleges) and the institutions of higher education organizing the exams are behind the assessment that it can not be carried out safely.
Karin Röding tells the newspaper that the politicians did not follow the principle of listening to the expert authorities on the question of whether the test can be carried out in a manner that doesn't expose people to infections.
UHR's Director General Karin Röding resigns

Nye tall: Hele Danmark kan bli rødt (VG.no, Sep. 9, 2020)
New numbers: All of Denmark may become red - As the map shows, that was actually what happened today. Due to the number of new cases, Denmark has gone all red, i.e. 10 days of quarantine now required when Danes go to Norway. This goes for most of Europe, major parts of Sweden and two regions in Finland.

 

[Clutch Cargo]

Despite initial criticism of “Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy” its strategy is being more and more praised and/or tolerated by the world. Quite apparently the pandemic remedy is subject to the “Less is more” theory. I’m not very surprised. It is common knowledge that the more one raves on about anything the greater the likelihood of bullcrappy infiltrating the facts of the subject.

It's the end of the world! Again!

 

[steenkh]

Despite initial criticism of “Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy” its strategy is being more and more praised and/or tolerated by the world.

Interesting to hear that the Swedish strategy is being praised, but could you bring some quotes ... or is it just nazis and other covidiots that is doing the praising?

 

[dann]

Interesting to hear that the Swedish strategy is being praised, but could you bring some quotes ... or is it just nazis and other covidiots that is doing the praising?

As Dagens Nyheter told us the day before yesterday:

Editorial:

Har Sverige gått från skräckexempel till förebild i coronabekämpningen? Inte för den som studerar dödssiffrorna.
Nej, den svenska coronastrategin har inte plötsligt blivit en världssucces (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 7, 2020)

Did Sweden go from being a dire warning to the world to becoming a role model in the struggle against corona? Not to people who study the death toll.
No, the Swedish corona strategy didn’t suddenly turn into a world success

And Nazis are not the only ones praising the Swedish strategy, unfortunately. Sweden is an inspiration to politicians in all countries that adopted a similar strategy, England*, for instance. And Anders Tegnell is doing his utmost to make the Swedish (= his) strategy appear to be a success story. The Swedish Public Health Agency's press briefing ended less than an hour ago:

Folkhälsomyndigheten om coronaläget: Anders Tegnell (9:53 -->): ”Greece, another country with many Swedish tourists, which had a very moderate spread in the beginning, has now had a rather massive spread lately as we can see, with quite a lot of deaths.”
When Sweden had the same number of deaths per week it was considered a big success!

I guess that in the middle of the apparently alarming numbers, there’s no reason to mention that Greece, a country with a population the size of Sweden, so far has had 293 deaths (the graph behind Tegnell has the number 290, which most people watching the press briefing won't notice), Sweden has had 5,843.

The per-capita death toll of Greece is only 28 per million, slightly better than Iceland’s 29 and much better than Norway’s 49, Finland’s 61, Denmark’s 109 or Sweden’s 578.


ETA: *Brittiska vändningen om svenska taktiken (Expressen.se, Aug. 22, 2020)
The article is followed by links to articles about similar (alleged) turnarounds in other countries.

 

[Clutch Cargo]

Denying knowledge of praise for Sweden’s strategy against the Coronavirus is dishonest It really is. We know nothing and that is why the reports fluctuate so greatly. One day we know something and the next day we don’t. What was true yesterday is proven false today. Knowing that we were wrong yesterday means, in essence, that we know less today than we did thenn .... and the same will be said tomorrow. Too much is mere speculation – most of it crap – so we plod along following the media that knows less than we do and quoting out-of-context and misleading statistics that are spun and tweaked for each political agenda.

If it's the end of the world then I'm going to drink beer and eat chocolate and enjoy the last days, weeks, months, or years. I've seen enough BS in the past 73 years and I'm not going to let this one dampen my joy. Everyone else can do what they like and I don't care. When the experts finally figure it out I'll know about it just the same and we can all laugh about the hysteria their media-bourne mistakes have caused.

"I see skies of blue and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself what a wonderful world"

 

[lionking]

Denying knowledge of praise for Sweden’s strategy against the Coronavirus is dishonest It really is. We know nothing and that is why the reports fluctuate so greatly. One day we know something and the next day we don’t. What was true yesterday is proven false today. Knowing that we were wrong yesterday means, in essence, that we know less today than we did thenn .... and the same will be said tomorrow. Too much is mere speculation – most of it crap – so we plod along following the media that knows less than we do and quoting out-of-context and misleading statistics that are spun and tweaked for each political agenda.

If it's the end of the world then I'm going to drink beer and eat chocolate and enjoy the last days, weeks, months, or years. I've seen enough BS in the past 73 years and I'm not going to let this one dampen my joy. Everyone else can do what they like and I don't care. When the experts finally figure it out I'll know about it just the same and we can all laugh about the hysteria their media-bourne mistakes have caused.

"I see skies of blue and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself what a wonderful world"

Anyone praising Sweden for enabling 6000 covid deaths in a small country is an idiot.

 

[dann]

It has actually come to this! The comparison with Belgium's 9,917 Covid-19 deaths is no longer enough to make Sweden's 6,000 seem negligible.


Thursday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 10, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
[Sweden: 578 (5,843) 314* 13 *according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 109 (629) 317 5
Finland: 61 (337) 39 1
Norway: 49 (265) 55 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 4 0
Iceland has 75 active cases, Faroe Islands 5, New Zealand 120.
The Faroe Islands have 7 in quarantine, 1 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.

Expert: Vi har været for længe om at lukke ned igen (DR.dk, Sep. 10, 2020)
Expert: It took us too long to lock down again

The Norwegians are much faster after cases have been increasing for two weeks:
Solberg (PM): Närmaste dagarna avgörande för Norge (DagenNyheter.se, Sep. 10, 2020)
The next days are crucial for Norway

 

[lionking]

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Reply to off topic post

How about this:

Sweden population 10m, covid deaths 6000
Australia population 25m, covid deaths 800

Care to comment?

 

[Clutch Cargo]

Anyone praising Sweden for enabling 6000 covid deaths in a small country is an idiot.

Utterly off topic.

How about this:
Sweden population 10m, covid deaths 6000
Australia population 25m, covid deaths 800

Care to comment?

Yes. We know nothing and that is why the reports fluctuate so greatly. One day we know something and the next day we don’t. What was true yesterday is proven false today. Knowing that we were wrong yesterday means, in essence, that we know less today than we did thenn .... and the same will be said tomorrow. Too much is mere speculation – most of it crap – so we plod along following the media that knows less than we do and quoting out-of-context and misleading statistics that are spun and tweaked for each political agenda. But there must be an echo here because I'm sure I said this before. Perhaps you missed it.

Would you care to comment on that?

 

[dann]

You argue like a woo claiming that some day science will prove astrology right because science has been known to be wrong before.

Lionking provides you with something that we know:

"Sweden population 10m, covid deaths 6000
Australia population 25m, covid deaths 800"

And you pretend that we don't know anything, which is wrong, and your claim that "Knowing that we were wrong yesterday means, in essence, that we know less today than we did thenn .... and the same will be said tomorrow," is utterly absurd: Knowing that you were wrong about something is still knowledge, often very useful knowledge, actually.

You fluctuate between arrogant claims that we are all wrong and denial of the possibility of any and all knowledge when your errors are pointed out to you. That your own statistics are misleading doesn't mean that all statistics are misleading. That you and Childlike Empress have a problem with very simple math doesn't mean that the rest of us do, too.