Cont: The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

[Resume]

Then if you consider the fact that a large portion of those people that died from Covid would have died if they contracted any form of coronavirus including the seasonal flu the death rate drops to somewhere around 0.05%.

What metric did you use to pull this from your ass determine this?

 

[Stacyhs]

I'm having this same damn discussion on my neighborhood forum. I keep reporting the posts promoting the QAnon CT. I've asked them to please close the thread as is the forum's policy when people are spreading this BS but it remains open.

How anyone is stupid enough to believe this QAnon nonsense boggles the mind but there ya go. It only goes to reinforce my belief that a large percentage of Trump supporters are just plain stupid. Nothing else explains it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

you can read how they are classifying deaths as Covid deaths yourself, the age of the Covid patients is public, the underlying health conditions related to the deaths is public, we know somewhere around 50% of the deaths were in nursing homes or hospitals when they contracted the virus. It’s all public information that is being reported by the agencies creating the guidelines. The problem is how some politicians, the media, and other public figures portray the data. They leave out the fact that a lot of these deaths weren’t caused by Covid, they leave out the fact that 80% of people that contract the virus are asymptomatic or have mild symptoms that never leads them to get tested. If you take the number of positive cases and add the 80% then take the number of deaths as reported the death rate is 0.4% and rapidly dropping if you adjust the death rate to reflect the number of deaths caused by Covid from deaths with Covid the death rate is somewhere around 0.2% or lower and rapidly dropping. Then if you consider the fact that a large portion of those people that died from Covid would have died if they contracted any form of coronavirus including the seasonal flu the death rate drops to somewhere around 0.05%.

Gavin, you don't know what you are talking about. You are spreading dangerous lies. No one on this forum except you buys any of that crap.

This is from the CNN link upthread and it is what I just posted in another forum:
What a surprise:

(CNN)Twitter on Sunday took down a tweet containing a false claim about coronavirus death statistics that was made by a supporter of the baseless QAnon conspiracy theory -- a post that President Donald Trump had retweeted earlier in the day.

The tweet -- which has been replaced with a message saying, "This Tweet is no longer available because it violated the Twitter Rules -- from "Mel Q," copied from someone else's Facebook post, claimed that the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had "quietly" updated its numbers "to admit that only 6%" of people listed as coronavirus deaths "actually died from Covid," since "the other 94% had 2-3 other serious illnesses."
That's NOT WHAT THE CDC SAID.

Like I said up-thread, that's not what the CDC says.

More from CNN:

The CDC's latest regular update to a public statistics page on the pandemic -- there was nothing especially "quiet" about it -- said that for 6% of the deaths included in its statistics, "Covid-19 was the only cause mentioned" on the deceased person's death certificate.
That is not at all the same thing as saying only 6% of reported Covid-19 deaths "actually died" from Covid-19. It simply means that the other 94% were listed as having at least one additional factor contributing to their death.
For example, the other 94% includes people whose death certificate listed both Covid-19 and obesity, both Covid-19 and diabetes, or both Covid-19 and heart disease -- among other conditions.
People can live with obesity, diabetes or heart disease for years but then get infected with Covid-19 and die quickly. The fact that they also had an underlying condition does not mean that Covid-19 was not a major reason, or the major reason, they died when they did.

They didn't die from obesity, obviously.

I knew all this stuff was nonsense. Now I see it's circling the social media and the crazy QANON people are behind it.
If you use the '99% of COVID infections will be fine' meme that is going around trying to make it seem like the virus is not that bad: well there are ~320,000,000 people in the country and 1% is more than 3 million people who will die or suffer serious disease.

 

[newyorkguy]

I can understand a reasonable person suggesting that maybe -- given some of the numbers -- the public reaction to the virus has been exaggerated. That its bad but not critically bad. Just another in a long series of viruses. Except the people who are really locked into this take it a step further that I don't think a reasonable person would take.

That the media and the Democrats have deliberately exaggerated the dangers of Covid-19 because they want to screw the economy as a way of hurting the trump administration. This is the angle the deniers usually don't mention because they know it won't play well.

And it doesn't.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

How anyone is stupid enough to believe this QAnon nonsense boggles the mind but there ya go. It only goes to reinforce my belief that a large percentage of Trump supporters are just plain stupid. Nothing else explains it.

There's an hour-long video going around as well and it is so reminiscent of the Loose Change video that spread the 911 was an inside job CT. I'm not linking to it because I don't want to be part of the amplification.


And there is this guy's blog: J.B. Handley - About page A quick scan reveals he's an anti-vaxxer, still hung up on vaccines causing autism.

I was going to ask for help debunking the guy but a neighbor did it for me.

SBM: J.B. Handley’s unthinking person’s guide to the COVID-19 pandemic

J.B. Handley was the founder of the antivaccine group Generation Rescue. Unfortunately, in the era of COVID-19 he’s started peddling pseudoscience related to the pandemic. Some things never change.

 

[Stacyhs]

There's an hour-long video going around as well and it is so reminiscent of the Loose Change video that spread the 911 was an inside job CT. I'm not linking to it because I don't want to be part of the amplification.


And there is this guy's blog: J.B. Handley - About page A quick scan reveals he's an anti-vaxxer, still hung up on vaccines causing autism.

I was going to ask for help debunking the guy but a neighbor did it for me.

SBM: J.B. Handley’s unthinking person’s guide to the COVID-19 pandemic

I suspect that people who believe in one crazy CT tend to believe in more than one.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Then if you consider the fact that a large portion of those people that died from Covid would have died if they contracted any form of coronavirus including the seasonal flu the death rate drops to somewhere around 0.05%.

How do you explain the number of excess deaths since the beginning of this pandemic as compared to previous years, including those with mortality spikes due to influenza?

If it was just people who were going to die anyway then we would not have excess mortality which is (coincidentally, I'm sure ) remarkably similar to (although still higher than) the number of deaths both directly and indirectly attributed to Covid 19.

Unless you are suggesting that we just happened to have a really, really bad year ... so far.

Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[Minoosh]

I'm having this same damn discussion on my neighborhood forum. I keep reporting the posts promoting the QAnon CT. I've asked them to please close the thread as is the forum's policy when people are spreading this BS but it remains open.

Maybe counter with stats on "excess deaths"? Those indicate an undercount, not an overcount.

We've known for quite a while that perfectly healthy people who contract COVID-19 usually don't die. (No word really on potential long-term effects). But the problem with saying "Most people who died also had diabetes, heart disease, pulmonary conditions etc." is the subtext ... "so it's really not that big a deal, so masks, lockdowns and distancing measures aren't necessary." But once you think about that, you come pretty close to a certain fatalism - that protecting old, sick people is either futile or not worth the effort. It's a little too close to saying, "Old lives don't matter." After all, how many people over age 65 (or even younger) haven't got some condition or another? When you look at this 6 percent or whatever figure in context it doesn't really change much. It could even backfire, eroding support among the senior citizens in Trump's base.

ETA: Ninja'd, of course.

 

[Minoosh]

I can understand a reasonable person suggesting that maybe -- given some of the numbers -- the public reaction to the virus has been exaggerated. That its bad but not critically bad. Just another in a long series of viruses. Except the people who are really locked into this take it a step further that I don't think a reasonable person would take.

That the media and the Democrats have deliberately exaggerated the dangers of Covid-19 because they want to screw the economy as a way of hurting the trump administration. This is the angle the deniers usually don't mention because they know it won't play well.

And it doesn't.

I've got to wonder how many US residents will realize that coincidentally, public health officials in dozens of countries also overreacted. (And that the sooner and stricter the action, the sooner deaths started to drop).

 

[Stacyhs]

Aw, come on, guys...stop confusing the issue with logic and rational thinking when what we really need is more confirmation bias and tunnel vision!

 

[newyorkguy]

I've got to wonder how many US residents will realize that coincidentally, public health officials in dozens of countries also overreacted. (And that the sooner and stricter the action, the sooner deaths started to drop).

This is the other part of this. Polling shows most Americans do get it. I read where a local official in Georgia or Texas said, they opened everything up but business remained way, way down because people were staying home anyway. That they allowed restaurants and bars to reopen but most people didn't want to go to a restaurant or bar. Some did, no doubt, but not enough to get the business back to anywhere close to normal.

Yay for us.

 

[Stacyhs]

This is the other part of this. Polling shows most Americans do get it. I read where a local official in Georgia or Texas said, they opened everything up but business remained way, way down because people were staying home anyway. That they allowed restaurants and bars to reopen but most people didn't want to go to a restaurant or bar. Some did, no doubt, but not enough to get the business back to anywhere close to normal.

Yay for us.

My family doesn't go anywhere except to Home Depot or to the grocery store and we always wear masks. And even there we often call ahead for pick up. We get it.

 

[Venom]

Then if you consider the fact that a large portion of those people that died from Covid would have died if they contracted any form of coronavirus including the seasonal flu the death rate drops to somewhere around 0.05%.

I think you mean common colds. Seasonal flu is caused by influenza viruses not coronaviruses.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I suspect that people who believe in one crazy CT tend to believe in more than one.

Boy I'll say. Now my neighborhood forum has the same people in the same thread insisting Harris supports abortion at full term. Not third trimester, mind you but full term.

Anyway, back to the thread.

 

[Stacyhs]

Boy I'll say. Now my neighborhood forum has the same people in the same thread insisting Harris supports abortion at full term. Not third trimester, mind you but full term.

Anyway, back to the thread.

Not just peanuts nuts, but full on mixed nuts.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Maybe counter with stats on "excess deaths"? Those indicate an undercount, not an overcount.

We've known for quite a while that perfectly healthy people who contract COVID-19 usually don't die. (No word really on potential long-term effects). But the problem with saying "Most people who died also had diabetes, heart disease, pulmonary conditions etc." is the subtext ... "so it's really not that big a deal, so masks, lockdowns and distancing measures aren't necessary." But once you think about that, you come pretty close to a certain fatalism - that protecting old, sick people is either futile or not worth the effort. It's a little too close to saying, "Old lives don't matter." After all, how many people over age 65 (or even younger) haven't got some condition or another? When you look at this 6 percent or whatever figure in context it doesn't really change much. It could even backfire, eroding support among the senior citizens in Trump's base.

ETA: Ninja'd, of course.

They're beyond reachable. Other people have pointed out evidence supported fact after fact with citations and they've just gotten more resolute. It's scary this apparently large group of COVID ct believers in the US.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Not just peanuts nuts, but full on mixed nuts.

 

[Aridas]

I brought this up here 3 weeks ago but just a couple of days ago it’s starting appearing every where across the internet.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released new data last week that depicts how many Americans who have died from COVID-19 also had other contributing conditions.

According to the report, only 6% of deaths have COVID-19 as the only cause mentioned, revealing that 94% of patients who died from coronavirus also had other “health conditions and contributing causes

https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/n...aths-in-us-had-underlying-medical-conditions/

That's the kind of thing where the original tweet got taken down from Twitter for how false it was.

Also, it was explained to you, repeatedly and in detail, why that line of COVID danger denial was so false and misleading. So what, exactly, are you trying to do by bringing it up again?

Seriously, we've known from the start that almost any existing health problem increases someone's chances of dying if they catch Covid-19. What on earth is the point being made here? Perhaps Gavin can explain it to us.

It's actually worse than that. When those supposed "underlying conditions" are very frequently things like respiratory distress (almost certainly directly caused by COVID) and the like, the claim shows itself to be really stupid, really fast.

You need to read all the posts above where this gross distortion of facts has been thoroughly debunked.

Possibly reread. He was pushing it before, after all.

you can read how they are classifying deaths as Covid deaths yourself, the age of the Covid patients is public, the underlying health conditions related to the deaths is public, we know somewhere around 50% of the deaths were in nursing homes or hospitals when they contracted the virus. It’s all public information that is being reported by the agencies creating the guidelines. The problem is how some politicians, the media, and other public figures portray the data. They leave out the fact that a lot of these deaths weren’t caused by Covid, they leave out the fact that 80% of people that contract the virus are asymptomatic or have mild symptoms that never leads them to get tested. If you take the number of positive cases and add the 80% then take the number of deaths as reported the death rate is 0.4% and rapidly dropping if you adjust the death rate to reflect the number of deaths caused by Covid from deaths with Covid the death rate is somewhere around 0.2% or lower and rapidly dropping. Then if you consider the fact that a large portion of those people that died from Covid would have died if they contracted any form of coronavirus including the seasonal flu the death rate drops to somewhere around 0.05%.

*facepalm*

You're grasping at rotten straws, still. And for what, exactly? What are you trying to do that you're willing to embarrass yourself like this, quite seriously?

This is the other part of this. Polling shows most Americans do get it. I read where a local official in Georgia or Texas said, they opened everything up but business remained way, way down because people were staying home anyway. That they allowed restaurants and bars to reopen but most people didn't want to go to a restaurant or bar. Some did, no doubt, but not enough to get the business back to anywhere close to normal.

Yay for us.

Meh. That's still not something that I would say yay to. That's pretty much just a given. COVID has caused a public health crisis - and THAT does kill the economy... and the economy isn't going to be healthy again until the crisis is *actually* under control. That's just the hard truth of the matter. It would have been so much better to have taken an initial short term hit and focus hard on getting things to the point where they were truly under control before reopening so that the economy can quickly return to being healthy, rather than living with a very sick economy. That's noting that the hit needed to get back to healthy just gets worse and worse and worse the more it was allowed to get out of control.

 

[Elagabalus]

you can read how they are classifying deaths as Covid deaths yourself, the age of the Covid patients is public, the underlying health conditions related to the deaths is public, we know somewhere around 50% of the deaths were in nursing homes or hospitals when they contracted the virus. It’s all public information that is being reported by the agencies creating the guidelines. The problem is how some politicians, the media, and other public figures portray the data. They leave out the fact that a lot of these deaths weren’t caused by Covid, they leave out the fact that 80% of people that contract the virus are asymptomatic or have mild symptoms that never leads them to get tested. If you take the number of positive cases and add the 80% then take the number of deaths as reported the death rate is 0.4% and rapidly dropping if you adjust the death rate to reflect the number of deaths caused by Covid from deaths with Covid the death rate is somewhere around 0.2% or lower and rapidly dropping. Then if you consider the fact that a large portion of those people that died from Covid would have died if they contracted any form of coronavirus including the seasonal flu the death rate drops to somewhere around 0.05%.

Please review these two threads:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343585

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344976

and stop wasting all of our time.

 

[Aridas]

Guess what, my fellow citizens of the USA! Looks like herd immunity is officially being pushed again by people in power! Not really a surprise, of course, given the Trump Administration, but...

Scott Atlas, the radiologist recruited to the admin after downplaying the pandemic on Fox News has been pushing for herd immunity. To achieve this without a vaccine, about 250 million Americans would contract the virus and 1.5-2 million would die.