Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

The fear is based on the assumption that anyone with a penis is going to be sexually attracted to women, which is often, but not always, true.

No, it's not. It's based on the statistical fact that most people with penises (including most transwomen, by the way) are attracted to women paired with the statistical fact that the vast majority of sexual crimes are committed by people who have or had penises!

 

[Emily's Cat]

You and I are both aware that trans acceptance is about more than hurt feelings. Trans people are uniquely in danger of violence and mistreatment. If there's an argument for gender segregated spaces, trans women are the poster child for people needing protection.

You say this as if women are NOT in danger of violence and mistreatment. We've poured through statistics in this thread several times. Transgender people face somewhat more sexual violence than cis-women do, but not by a massive amount. And it's complicated by the fact that transgender people have a materially higher proportion of sex workers, and sex workers have a higher rate of sexual violence.

I'm all for providing safety for trans people. But I DO NOT think that their increased safety should come at the price of DECREASED safety for cis-women! Why is their increase in marginal safety more important than the safety of cis-women? Why do you think that cis-women should be made less safe and less secure than they are now?

This is even more baffling when we look at a situation like Colleen Francis. She was not endangered at all. And by her own actions she made a LOT of other females feel less secure and more at risk in one of the few areas in the world that are supposed to be a safe space for women. That was NOT about Colleen's safety - that was about Colleen's "right" to be naked around young women.

Seriously, can't you at least acknowledge that while Colleen has legal right to be there, she was ethically i the wrong to make so many girls feel exposed and vulnerable?

Can you at least acknowledge that while Jessica Yaniv might merit recognition as a woman on the basis of her belief about herself, she should NOT have a right to force other females to touch her male genitalia? She should NOT have a right to sue gynecologists for refusing to give her an appointment to have her non-existent vagina checked for conditions she is unable to get?

Can you at least sympathize with the concerns of cis-women at all?

 

[Rolfe]

Trans people are uniquely in danger of violence and mistreatment.

Poppycock. Nonsense on stilts.

 

[theprestige]

Trans people are uniquely in danger of violence and mistreatment.

Trans people are in danger of violence and mistreatment due to how they look; how they act; what kind of genitalia they have. None of these dangers are unique to transpeople.

Indeed, a transwoman who presents as a woman and passes as a woman is in exactly the same danger as other women. Which is kind of the point.

 

[Meadmaker]

Trans people are in danger of violence and mistreatment due to how they look; how they act; what kind of genitalia they have. None of these dangers are unique to transpeople.

Indeed, a transwoman who presents as a woman and passes as a woman is in exactly the same danger as other women. Which is kind of the point.

To be fair, transpeople do have a lot more problems with violence. As for people who pass, the problem is not with people who pass. It is people who pass, and then suddenly stop passing. i.e. People assume that they are dealing with a female, and then realize they are dealing with a male. This has been known to lead to violence.


When this issue started coming to the knowledge of society, I had a lot more sympathy for transpeople, because I think casual violence was more prevalent even just 10 years ago than it is today, and I think that an assault on a transwoman for using the women's bathroom would be met with kind of a shrug if it had been reported 10-15 years ago. I think today that a lot more people think it's ok for transwomen to use the ladies' room, and even among people who don't think that's ok, almost everyone recognizes that it is not ok to beat them up if they do use the ladies' room. Law enforcement is not likely to just look the other way as they once did.

Over the years, my attitude towards transgenders has hardened a little bit for a few reasons. The level of violence is less, and the level of entitlement is higher. I don't now and never have had a really big issue with a transwoman being out, looking like a woman, and peeing in a public restroom. However, I do think it's reasonable that in a high school setting, when dealing with people who you interact with every day, to use the faculty restroom when it's offered. When in a locker room, do everything conceivable to "pass" so that you don't make the girls in the locker room uncomfortable and, therefore, in a high school setting where everyone knows everyone, use the private room.

These things are reasonable accommodations, but they go against the trans rights agenda because they all acknowledge that transwomen are not really women. That's anathema to the people who think that they really are women despite their genitals, and there just isn't a way to reconcile the positions. As a result, I've grown more toward the harder line stance.

 

[Rolfe]

To be fair, transpeople do have a lot more problems with violence.

Citation required. Preferably not referring to Brazilian sex workers, who aren't a major demographic in the push to have female spaces in English-speaking countries opened to any male who wants to enter.

The citations I've seen, regarding murder, surprisingly demonstrated that trans-identifying men are murdered at a significantly lower rate than either men or women. Indeed, looking at these figures, it was suggested that if a man wanted to reduce his risk of being killed, his best move would be to put on a dress.

Other forms of violence, I don't know, but I'd be extremely surprised if there were robust figures demonstrating that trans-identifying men are the victims of assault or grievous bodily harm at a greater rate than men or women.

 

[Meadmaker]

Citation required. Preferably not referring to Brazilian sex workers, who aren't a major demographic in the push to have female spaces in English-speaking countries opened to any male who wants to enter.

The citations I've seen, regarding murder, surprisingly demonstrated that trans-identifying men are murdered at a significantly lower rate than either men or women. Indeed, looking at these figures, it was suggested that if a man wanted to reduce his risk of being killed, his best move would be to put on a dress.

Other forms of violence, I don't know, but I'd be extremely surprised if there were robust figures demonstrating that trans-identifying men are the victims of assault or grievous bodily harm at a greater rate than men or women.

It's possible I just assumed. I haven't seen any stats. I've seen lots of headlines, and the stories always emphasize the danger to trans-people, but they don't often include statistics.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, it's a favourite meme of the trans lobby. The poor marginalised transwoman, constantly at risk of assault and murder. It's all nonsense. They can only hold it up by including Brazilian transwomen in the sex trade (who do appear to suffer a high rate of murder but then so do all Brazilian prostitutes I think). If you exclude Latin America, it's far safer to be trans than either a man or a woman. The reduction in murder rate between men (the highest demographic) and transwomen is astonishing.

There was a "trans day of remembrance" recently where everyone was supposed to mourn for murdered transwomen. In fact there hadn't been any that year as far as I remember, and going back quite a long time didn't get it out of single figures. Pretty much all of these cases were crimes of passion or robbery, with no evidence of anyone in Britain having been murdered specifically for being trans. At the same time a woman is murdered about every three days in Britain. Even if you allow for population size (which of course you should) there's no comparison. Someone pointed out that over the past ten years (I think), substantially more transwomen had been convicted of committing murder than had been murder victims. Saying that on Twitter will get you a ban though.

The other thing they do is bang on about the rate of sexual assault suffered by transwomen, which is never contextualised. It sounds high, but it's a lot less than the rate of sexual assault suffered by women.

A third ploy is to bang on about transphobic violence being so common, but they appear to include misgendering in that, or even reading something they think is transphobic. And as we know, everything is transphobic. And transphobia is "literal violence".

In particular, people who have looked for examples of violent attacks on transwomen in male lavatories have struggled to find anything at all. Transwomen who use male lavatories say they have no trouble at all. We're always being told women have to take on the burden of protecting these poor transwomen from their brothers who will beat them up in the gents, but this appears to be something which practically never actually happens.

 

[Meadmaker]

In particular, people who have looked for examples of violent attacks on transwomen in male lavatories have struggled to find anything at all. Transwomen who use male lavatories say they have no trouble at all. We're always being told women have to take on the burden of protecting these poor transwomen from their brothers who will beat them up in the gents, but this appears to be something which practically never actually happens.

I suspect the rates are higher in the US, because crime is a lot higher in the US in general.

The crime I most commonly assume would be "There's a man in the ladies' room!", followed by a male protector stepping forward to "beat up the pervert".

I do know that I have read stories about that sort of assault, but not recently. We did have a case last fall where a man said that if he heard that a local transgender went into the Planet Fitness locker room when his wife was there, that he would kill the transwoman. I don't think he actually did, but I think there was an actual assault, and the man was arrested. I would expect that sort of thing to be the most common specifically transgender crime. (As opposed to "Transgender person gets murdered in Chicago." where lots of people get murdered anyway.

 

[Rolfe]

No, you're not following me. We're told that the reason these men have to be allowed to go in the ladies is that they will be beaten up if they go in the gents. There are almost no reports of this ever actually having happened. Lots of transwomen (obvious transwomen whom nobody would mistake for an actual woman) reporting that they use the gents all the time and don't get any hassle.

 

[Meadmaker]

No, you're not following me. We're told that the reason these men have to be allowed to go in the ladies is that they will be beaten up if they go in the gents. There are almost no reports of this ever actually having happened. Lots of transwomen (obvious transwomen whom nobody would mistake for an actual woman) reporting that they use the gents all the time and don't get any hassle.

Right. I doubt that happens much today, but I suspect it would have happened in America some years back. Probably quite a few years back.*i.e. when I was young) I know I had gay friends who reported being hassled and being afraid in public restroom, just for looking or acting queer, as judged by the observer. I can't imagine a transwoman doing any better in similar circumstances.

However, I don't hear about that happening today. Things really have changed, at least in the US.

 

[Manger Douse]

Transphobia is a hate crime in the UK - misogyny isn't

 

[Rolfe]

Right. I doubt that happens much today, but I suspect it would have happened in America some years back. Probably quite a few years back.*i.e. when I was young) I know I had gay friends who reported being hassled and being afraid in public restroom, just for looking or acting queer, as judged by the observer. I can't imagine a transwoman doing any better in similar circumstances.

However, I don't hear about that happening today. Things really have changed, at least in the US.

But that is the central argument trans activists have for insisting that women must give up their single-sex spaces. The assertion that men presenting in a feminine manner will be physically assaulted if they go into male single-sex spaces.

 

[Rolfe]

And some men who identify as trans are sexual predators. They exhibit predatory behaviour against females in a way that is vanishingly rare among women. The existence of some, even a majority of non-threatening trans-identifying men doesn't negate this point. The basic psychopathy which leads to autogynaephilia and trans-identification in men appears in some individuals to be inextricably linked with deeply problematic behaviour around women. I give you Jonathan Yaniv just for starters but there are plenty others.

Oh look, I just came across this one which I hadn't seen before.

Transgender youth arrested for raping 4-year-old girl

And then there's this one.

Transgender twitter engineer viciously rapes his estranged wife

Hell, this entire twitter thread.

 

[theprestige]

Transphobia is a hate crime in the UK - misogyny isn't

That's so weird! What's a good example of something that would be a hate crime in the UK if the victim is trans, but not if the victim is female?

Also, what does this have to do with anything currently being discussed in the thread?

 

[Ziggurat]

Transphobia is a hate crime in the UK - misogyny isn't

How does that even work?

In the US, there are some hate crime laws. But they don't criminalize hate as such, because that's stupid and ineffective. Rather, they basically increase penalties for certain crimes that are motivated by animosity to certain protected classes. But the action still has to be a crime to begin with, even absent the hate element. Protected classes usually include race, sex, religion, and national origin. Gender identity is sometimes a protected class as well. But I don't think there are any which protect gender identity and NOT sex. That strikes me as... odd.

 

[Manger Douse]

That's so weird! What's a good example of something that would be a hate crime in the UK if the victim is trans, but not if the victim is female?

Misgendering them is the one that first springs to mind!

Also, what does this have to do with anything currently being discussed in the thread?

Just as a counterpoint to trans people being uniquely in danger of violence and mistreatment - they also have unique protections

Zigguart - yes it strikes me as odd too

 

[Rolfe]

They aren't in unique danger of violence and mistreatment, but they demand (and frequently get) unique protections anyway.

 

[theprestige]

Misgendering them is the one that first springs to mind!

I'm sorry, is that a law that's actually on the books in the UK?

Also, that seems more of a very specific trans issue, than a general case of transphobia being a crime but misogyny not.

 

[Manger Douse]

This is from the Crown Prosecution Service website:

"Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."