Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[TurkeysGhost]

Maybe but that's a meta discussion. It doesn't change the value of the arguments presented.

Sure. We don't have to name it, but the ideology shines through regardless.

I don't see why the meta conversation should be avoided. Would you similarly avoid naming Truther arguments, or white supremacy, or any other clearly ideological series of arguments?

Debating with the TERF absolutist argument involves dealing with the TERF ideology about what it means to be a woman and why trans women cannot qualify.

 

[Belz...]

I don't see why the meta conversation should be avoided.

Only because I feel it's often used as a way to avoid the more substantial discussion of the actual arguments.

 

[lionking]

Wait a second, though. You said you didn't ask him to name them and now you ask for evidence which will necessarily require quoting the person in question.

Rolfe. He's talking about Rolfe. The question is, does the label fit, and does that matter to the discussion in any way? The answer is maybe, and no, respectively.

So all this nonsense about TERFs is a red herring anyway. It doesn't matter if someone is a TERF or not.

Is this an ex cathedra pronouncement?

I don’t accept your opinion. An insult is an insult.

 

[uke2se]

Is this an ex cathedra pronouncement?

I don’t accept your opinion. An insult is an insult.

Do you also tip-toe around calling a white supremacist racist?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Only because I feel it's often used as a way to avoid the more substantial discussion of the actual arguments.

Seems to me the aversion to naming the beast is all the more reason to do so.

 

[Belz...]

Is this an ex cathedra pronouncement?

I don’t accept your opinion. An insult is an insult.

You misunderstand me. I meant that the labeling of people as TERFs has no bearing the discussion of their arguments.

 

[Belz...]

Do you also tip-toe around calling a white supremacist racist?

No, but I might be more careful about calling someone racist just because he disagrees with me on the topic of race, especially if the racism in question has no bearing on the discussion.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't generally use the term terf, or think that it's particularly useful in most circumstances, but the argument against it that it might not literally describe everybody to whom it's applied because they aren't feminists is a poor one. Words often diverge from their literal meanings. Words ending in "phobia" to describe bigotry and discrimination against some groups doesn't necessarily literally imply fear, although that is where it has its roots. Similarly "terrific" means "great", even thought its literal meaning is "to inspire fear".

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

An insult is an insult.

Misgendering is an insult. Insults are okay, it seems, so long as you agree that the person being insulted should be insulted.

I'm not a huge fan of "terf", but if it's an insult, at least it's attacking someone for what they say and do, rather than for who they are.

 

[Belz...]

I don't generally use the term terf, or think that it's particularly useful in most circumstances, but the argument against it that it might not literally describe everybody to whom it's applied because they aren't feminists is a poor one. Words often diverge from their literal meanings. Words ending in "phobia" to describe bigotry and discrimination against some groups doesn't necessarily literally imply fear, although that is where it has its roots. Similarly "terrific" means "great", even thought its literal meaning is "to inspire fear".

Sure but if a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" doesn't need to be a radical or a feminist to qualify, it's a bit misleading and will derail discussions where it's used pretty much automatically. In fact so much so that someone bringing it up could reasonable be suspected of derailing said discussion deliberately.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

TERF is a term given to this ideology from outsiders. I would happily use another shorthand for trans exclusionary feminists if one is available, in the interest of civility.

What do these people refer to themselves as to differentiate themselves from the wider group of feminists who aren't trans exclusionists?

ETA: Some seem to prefer the term "Gender Critical". Is it appropriate to use this in place of TERF? Would the people objecting to the term TERF also object to Gender Critical?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Sure but if a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" doesn't need to be a radical or a feminist to qualify, it's a bit misleading and will derail discussions where it's used pretty much automatically. In fact so much so that someone bringing it up could reasonable be suspected of derailing said discussion deliberately.

I can't speak for Squeegee, but TERF usually is pretty specific about what it means. It's not a substitute for a general trans-bigot. It's specifically about trans exclusionists rooted in feminist philosophy.

A MAGA-hat person being bigoted towards trans people is not an example of TERF.

 

[lionking]

Do you also tip-toe around calling a white supremacist racist?

Take this to another thread about racism.

 

[uke2se]

Take this to another thread about racism.

I'm comparing one form of bigotry to another. It's relevant to this tangent of the thread.

 

[Meadmaker]

It matters to understand the motivations for certain conclusions. When we're splitting hairs about admittance to women's shelters based on practical concerns, it's useful to know that an ideology that supposes all trans-people are inherently "the other" and dangerous is in the mix.

TERF ideology places a pretty heavy thumb on the scales of judgement.

Well, it might be useful, but like so many instances, it might also be misleading if not combined with other knowledge. As the saying goes, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

The danger here is that knowing such an ideology is "in the mix", the possibility exists that you might assume that something you see is a result of that ideology, while ignoring the possibility that it is the result of some completely different ideology.

 

[Distracted1]

Misgendering is an insult. Insults are okay, it seems, so long as you agree that the person being insulted should be insulted.

I'm not a huge fan of "terf", but if it's an insult, at least it's attacking someone for what they say and do, rather than for who they are.

Only if one is asserting that one gender is "less" than another.

 

[lionking]

I don't generally use the term terf, or think that it's particularly useful in most circumstances, but the argument against it that it might not literally describe everybody to whom it's applied because they aren't feminists is a poor one. Words often diverge from their literal meanings. Words ending in "phobia" to describe bigotry and discrimination against some groups doesn't necessarily literally imply fear, although that is where it has its roots. Similarly "terrific" means "great", even thought its literal meaning is "to inspire fear".

Seriously? We are now in Alice in Wonderland territory where words mean only what you decree them to mean. “Terrific” meant once to inspire fear? Yes I know that. So what?

What is your definition of TERF other than a label of someone on the other side of your position? And a lazy and inaccurate label.

 

[Meadmaker]

Debating with the TERF absolutist argument involves dealing with the TERF ideology about what it means to be a woman and why trans women cannot qualify.

And this provides a great illustration about what I was mentioning in my last post. We have "TERF ideology about what it means to be a woman".

I think TERFs, (the real ones, i.e. actual radical feminists who exclude trans-women from the "women" category) share a definition of what it means to be a woman with a whole lot of people who are not radical feminists, and who are not feminist, and including a whole lot of people who are downright anti-feminist.

Those of us who think "woman" is a term that only properly applies to biological females didn't get this notion from TERFs, so labelling that idea as "TERF ideology" is pretty weird, really. Yes, that idea is shared by TERFs, but it is also shared by almost every single human being that lived before the turn of the most recent millennium as well.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Seriously? We are now in Alice in Wonderland territory where words mean only what you decree them to mean.

I hate to break this to you, but words do mean what people use them to mean. That's how the English language, as a living language, works.

 

[Roboramma]

I hate to break this to you, but words do mean what people use them to mean. That's how the English language, as a living language, works.

True. And I'm pretty sure that TERF still means "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". It's what the majority of people in this thread seem to think it means.