Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Emily's Cat]

As a practical matter, I tend to agree.

But you seem to be advocating an ethical principle: Whether or not men *can* give themselves a say, you seem to be saying that they *should not* have a say. That they are ethically or morally wrong for giving themselves a say in certain policy debates.

I'm on the fence here. I don't know that I can make a blanket statement one way or another... but I will say that there are scenarios where men are not relevant and are not affected by the policy at all, and where I don't think it's appropriate that men should have an equal voice in those situations.

 

[theprestige]

Do you hold the same view with respect to say... abortion? Maternity services? The availability of mammogram services?

Do you also think that white men should have an equal voice in the disposition of grants and services that are targeted at supporting minority communities? Should straight people have an equal voice in how the Pride Parade is run and organized? Or whether or not two people of the same sex should be allowed to get married?

Yes, of course.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not familiar with these examples, but it seems that the problem isn't trans people, but sexual harassers. I see no reason why a women's shelter can't throw out any woman, cis or trans, that leers or otherwise sexually harasses other people at the shelter. This has the added benefit of not excluding innocent trans people who are in desperate need of shelter.

Let's try this for illustration. The problem isn't adult men, it's pedophiles. I see no reason why elementary school girls restrooms or middle school girls showers can't throw out any pedophile, male or female, that leers at or otherwise sexually misbehaves with a child. This has the added benefit of not excluding innocent adult men who really just need to pee or shower.

 

[Emily's Cat]

They can always meet at a restaurant.

A restaurant that excludes people outside that subgroup? Honestly, Belz, I can't tell if you're serious or not.

 

[Joe Random]

Do you hold the same view with respect to say... abortion? Maternity services? The availability of mammogram services?

Do you also think that white men should have an equal voice in the disposition of grants and services that are targeted at supporting minority communities? Should straight people have an equal voice in how the Pride Parade is run and organized? Or whether or not two people of the same sex should be allowed to get married?

We do in fact do this in other areas. Straight people were allowed to vote on CA's Prop. 8, for example. Childless people have a say in laws regarding childcare or schooling and the like. People who will never own firearms have their say in firearms legislation.

Private functions like parades are different, of course. But if we're trying to apply the force of the government (state, local, or federal) then we don't limit the voices to only those affected by the issues.

And speaking for my part, I'm a straight male who is strongly in favor of marriage equality and sex-restricted spaces. While not impacted the same as the 'targets' of these issues it's really not hard to listen to and understand their arguments.

We're a society. Everyone should have a say in the way the government is allowed to use its force to compel us to/prevent us from acting.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The foundation of the communal safe space assumes that people are heteronormative. This already fails when you consider that homosexuality is common, and being in a single sex space is no protection from lustful eyes.

Umm... most of it has nothing to do with sexuality. It has a lot more to do with bodies, and with shared experiences. Lesbians escape to the restroom to avoid unwanted male attention too, and no woman wants to deny them that refuge.

 

[Emily's Cat]

They can and do.

It's also worth noting that in this thread I posted a recent poll (YouGuv, IIRC, but don't quote me on that. It was definitely a well-known, reputable organisation) which showed that a majority of women think that trans women should be allowed into women's shelters, and should be allowed access to women's bathrooms. I forget if they asked about any other women-only spaces, but those seem to be two of the three that generate the most conversation, with changing rooms being the third.

So, really, any argument that women should be asked what they want really has to take into account the fact that they have been, and the majority were in favour of trans women accessing women-only spaces.

IIRC, there was a lot more to it than that. Yes, there's general support for transwomen in women's spaces... but NOT ON THE BASIS OF SELF-IDENTIFICATION ALONE.

 

[Rolfe]

In that case my proposed solution may not be optimal. Do you have your own solution to voice?

The provision of a third space to be used by anyone who wants to use it, of either sex, with the individual cubicles you describe, in addition to the usual male and female single-sex spaces seems to me to be a reasonable solution. Some new buildings I have seen are already built to this specification. (It was a pity then that the organisers of the event I went to last year, in such a building, then deemed it necessary to plaster notices all over the ladies and (I was told) the gents, telling people that anyone could also use these facilities and nobody at all should be challenged because "they know where they feel safe". No thought about whether their presence might make others feel unsafe.)

Well, the fact that these notices appeared should tell you something. Separate unisex provision, however well-appointed, will never be acceptable to the trans lobby. They want women's spaces. It's not about "we just want to pee". Not at all.

[imgw=600]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfLTwxBWkAINhoy?format=jpg[/imgw]

Sorry I had to edit that image because there was a banned word in it in a couple of places. Now bowdlerised.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have, apparently, been romantic only with exceedingly boring women in my life ...

Apparently I've been a really boring woman my whole life. My vagina has never exploded.

 

[Belz...]

Apparently I've been a really boring woman my whole life. My vagina has never exploded.

You don't know what you're missing!

 

[Belz...]

The provision of a third space to be used by anyone who wants to use it, of either sex, with the individual cubicles you describe, in addition to the usual male and female single-sex spaces seems to me to be a reasonable solution. Some new buildings I have seen are already built to this specification..

Yes but it sounds like an enormous expenditure of money if we're going to refurbish the older buildings. Who would this benefit, outside of trans people? (Again, serious question)

 

[d4m10n]

So only the people who are affected by a policy should have a say in it? Do you know how idiotic such a principle would be, and how insane it would be to apply?

Why, though? Whenever a private club (e.g. the YWCA) decides to change their eligibility requirements, only the people who are already eligible have a say.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Rolfe when you ask someone to support their claim do you expect to do the legwork for them?

If I go looking and I find that I cannot find evidence that supports you, then what? Wouldn't it be easier for you to just show us what you've got? I don't think I'm being unreasonable here; I really don't know what the answer is.

Yeah, whatever. Done that. Several times. "Oh noes that's a transphobic hate site" (which is quoting sourced statistics) " not even going to read it!"

A bit of truth from both of you here.

Belz, there is information available, I'll try to find it for you. I know you well enough to know that you won't dismiss it out of hand. But it's very likely that Squeegee and Suburban Turkey will.

The groups that actually do a fair bit of investigation into this tend to be women's groups. There's one in England that has a lot of statistics and real data... but it routinely gets called "hateful" by people who toss around the term TERF with abandon.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes but it sounds like an enormous expenditure of money if we're going to refurbish the older buildings. Who would this benefit, outside of trans people? (Again, serious question)

Women who want to retain single-sex spaces would benefit, if it stopped the men in dresses from constantly demanding access. (Except it wouldn't.) It would be a lot less expensive than converting everything to single-occupancy unisex provisions. (Which by the way would mean the end of the urinal and men having to queue for the loo in absolute equality with women. Now there's a thought.)

Anyway, I thought nothing was too good for the straight white men who are also the most oppressed beings on the face of the planet?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Hey, thanks for telling me in advance that your evidence won't pass muster.

That's not the case. It has just been dismissed out of hand by some posters here already, despite it being very solid work sourced from public data. I'm speculating, but I think Rolfe is very frustrated... and maybe not targeting her ire as well as might be liked. I can completely understand her anger, I feel it too. But i know you well enough to know that your brusque style doesn't indicated confrontation .

 

[Rolfe]

I am totally fed up with this discussion. I'm fed up with the entitled, hectoring tone from men who repeatedly appoint themselves as gatekeepers and arbiters of women's spaces, and who happily announce that they think it's just fine to allow men, or some subset of men, into these spaces so that's all right then. I'm fed up with people who cannot see beyond their delusional position that men who want to be women are all poor harmless marginalised flowers who must have every possible trigger for "hurt" taken away from them, but actual women are vicious bigots whose potential for hurt is only to be mocked and denied.

I'm fed up with people who declare with a straight face that biological sex is either not real at all, or is determined by a feeling in someone's head rather than by chromosomal makeup. I'm fed up with male posters who adopt an astringent style getting away with it, and female posters who may do similar being castigated for it.

I'm pretty shocked that this forum contains people who say things like men are female if they say they are, and aren't pilloried to hell and back as worse than homoeopaths. But, c'est la vie 2020 style.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We do in fact do this in other areas. Straight people were allowed to vote on CA's Prop. 8, for example. Childless people have a say in laws regarding childcare or schooling and the like. People who will never own firearms have their say in firearms legislation.

Private functions like parades are different, of course. But if we're trying to apply the force of the government (state, local, or federal) then we don't limit the voices to only those affected by the issues.

And speaking for my part, I'm a straight male who is strongly in favor of marriage equality and sex-restricted spaces. While not impacted the same as the 'targets' of these issues it's really not hard to listen to and understand their arguments.

We're a society. Everyone should have a say in the way the government is allowed to use its force to compel us to/prevent us from acting.

This is one of those topics that, in principle, I support. In practice, however, we end up with situations like Alabama requiring counseling and invasive transvaginal imaging before a woman is allowed to have an abortion. While I would very much like it to be a fully equal approach... I'm a lot more hesitant about allowing men to have a voice over women's bodies.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You don't know what you're missing!

It sounds painful though...

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am totally fed up with this discussion. I'm fed up with the entitled, hectoring tone from men who repeatedly appoint themselves as gatekeepers and arbiters of women's spaces, and who happily announce that they think it's just fine to allow men, or some subset of men, into these spaces so that's all right then. I'm fed up with people who cannot see beyond their delusional position that men who want to be women are all poor harmless marginalised flowers who must have every possible trigger for "hurt" taken away from them, but actual women are vicious bigots whose potential for hurt is only to be mocked and denied.

I'm fed up with people who declare with a straight face that biological sex is either not real at all, or is determined by a feeling in someone's head rather than by chromosomal makeup. I'm fed up with male posters who adopt an astringent style getting away with it, and female posters who may do similar being castigated for it.

I'm pretty shocked that this forum contains people who say things like men are women if they say they are, and aren't pilloried to hell and back as worse than homoeopaths. But, c'est la vie 2020 style.

I feel you.

But I'll stick it out for a bit longer. Because the truth, however unfortunate, is that we can't make this case on our own. We need support from men. And there are several men in this thread who don't accept that sex is all made up, or that anyone who claims it can be a woman.

But I don't blame you for tapping out. I'm 100% certain that I'll need a break at some point too. I'll meet you in the ladies room!

 

[theprestige]

Why, though? Whenever a private club (e.g. the YWCA) decides to change their eligibility requirements, only the people who are already eligible have a say.

Not quite true. Even private organizations are constrained by law regarding the kinds of discrimination they can practice. And everybody, not just those affected, have a say in the public policy debate about what those constraints should be.