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Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts

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It's too bad that a small minority of left-wing Germans have joined the protests of right-wing libertarians and conspiracy nuts.


We are millions now and the bulk of the protesters are plain middle-of-the-road folks. Fortunately we have a ton of medics and scientists who spoke out about this insanity, so everybody who cared to look is informed. I'm actually off now, in the heat (which no coronavirus will ever survive), to my first demonstration since my silly teenage years. One of many that will happen today.
 
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I'm sorry to hear that your teenage years were silly.

I hope that you are aware of the contradiction between Lukashenko's declaration that ""corona" (is) a neurosis that is not happening in his country," and your idea of "the heat (which no coronavirus will ever survive)". Heat is not the way to heal neuroses!

An outdoor demonstration probably won't spread the infection much, but be sure to wear a face mask if you use public transport to get there.
If you are in Dortmund, there seems to be plenty of room for social distancing:
Heute Corona-Demo in Dortmund - Start verzögert sich (Ruhr24.de, Aug. 9, 2020)

Viel Spaß!
 
Mir gefällt die eine Parole bei der heutigen Flensburger Demo: "Wer als Patriot losläuft, kommt als Fascist ans Ziel"
Auf die Frage, "Haben die Schweden vielleicht recht?", ist die Antwort natürlich: Nein, überhaupt nicht.

(Two homemade signs at the rally of virus deniers in Flensburg today: 'If you start out as a patriot, you'll end up as a Nazi,' and 'May the Swedes be right after all?' They appear to have both pro and con protesters.)
 
Mir gefällt die eine Parole bei der heutigen Flensburger Demo: "Wer als Patriot losläuft, kommt als Fascist ans Ziel"
Auf die Frage, "Haben die Schweden vielleicht recht?", ist die Antwort natürlich: Nein, überhaupt nicht.

(Two homemade signs at the rally of virus deniers in Flensburg today: 'If you start out as a patriot, you'll end up as a Nazi,' and 'May the Swedes be right after all?' They appear to have both pro and con protesters.)
You did not translate them both completely:

*** 'If you start out as a patriot, you'll end up as a Nazi,' is a very short-sighted statement. It is drawing on Hitler's maniac idea of what a patriot ought to be but not on the nuances and limits that patriotism can issue.

*** 'May the Swedes be right after all?' You forgot the last clause, "Nein, überhaupt nicht". 'No, not at all'. I really don't think anyone is in a full position to know yet.
 
Thanks, but it wasn't a translation. I just meant to give the people who don't understand German the general idea.
 
Aarhus:
128 registreret smittet med coronavirus det seneste døgn (DR.dk, Aug. 9, 2020)
128 new cases since yesterday - 72 of them in Aarhus

Plejehjem i Aarhus ramt af coronasmitte og aktiverer beredskabsplan (dr.dk, Aug. 9, 2020)
Nursing home in Aarhus hit by corona infection; activates contingency plan - So far, one resident only, discovered due to Covid-19 symptoms. Nobody else has symptoms, but …

Skoler i Aarhus udsætter skolestart efter coronasmitte (TV2.dk, Aug. 9, 2020)
Schools in Aarhus postpone the start of the new school year after corona infections

Mortality in Swedish ICUs
Minskad dödlighet bland covidpatienter på IVA (SVT.se, Aug. 9, 2020)
Lowered mortality among Covid-19 patients in ICU - 30-day-mortality rate decreased from 34 percent in March, 21% in April, to 19 percent in May. But there is no reason to celebrate what at first glance appears to be an improvement in the Swedish health-care system. This isn't really a success story. As mentioned before, they simply stopped taking in elderly patients in April ...
 
In my country that's a difference of 33,006 deaths, which IMO would be well worth the inconvenience. The sad thing is the lockdown here was so bungled it's not going to be achieved.


Today, the Swedish media Aftonbladet has this article:
Brittiska tidningen: Sverige kan ha haft rätt hela tiden (Aftonbladet, Aug. 9, 2020)
British newspaper: Sweden may have been right the whole time

It is no surprise that it quotes Giesecke:
– Jag mötte en skotsk professor för en tid sedan. Han visade bilder och grafer över den skotska pandemin och la över Sveriges grafer. Bilderna var exakt likadana.
Trots olika strategier?
– Ja precis.
– I met a Scottish professor some time ago. He showed med pictures and graphs of the Scottish pandemic and placed them on top of Sweden's graphs. The pictures were exactly alike.
In spite of different strategies?
– Yes, exactly.

It is also no surprise that Giesecke doesn't explain what makes the graph of Sweden's death toll (I assume that's what he's talking about) similar to that of Scotland but so very different from the of the other Nordic countries ...

This must be the Daily Mail article: Why Sweden, pilloried by the whole world for refusing to lock down - with schools staying open and no face mask laws - may be having the last laugh as experts say Stockholm is close to achieving herd immunity (Daily Mail, Aug. 8, 2020)

The rest of Sweden, in particular the elderly, must be horrified at the prospect of having to go through the same thing Stockholm experienced in order to get 'herd immunity'. As must the elderly in Stockholm who managed to avoid getting it so far.
 
Yes, so far Sweden has had 5,763 deaths out of 10 million people.
The other Nordic countries have had 1,214 deaths out of 17 million people.

Sweden has flattened the curve without a lockdown, which took it a couple of months longer than the other Nordic countries, it left people to die without any kind of Covid-19 treatment, i.e. with palliative care only, practiced long-distance triage, while bragging about empty ICU units. In other words, Sweden let people die to maintain the illusion of a health-care system that wasn't overwhelmed.

The other Nordic countries hammered down virus fast with a lockdown (version: light), thus saving 10,000 lives and an awful lot of pain, disability and suffering - sometimes long-term.
Not to mention that they managed to make (not only) the elderly population feel relatively safe and not completely abandoned and left to their own devices.

And even in the current situation, Sweden has a higher death toll and number of new infections than the other Nordic countries.

There is no way around it!

We all agree they did a lousy job protecting their elderly

From
Unreported Truths about Covid-19 and Lockdowns
Alex Berenson

“Sweden’s high death rates were driven almost entirely by the fact that the country didn’t just fail to protect nursing homes but in some cases actually discouraged physicians from offering care to the extremely elderly. In a June article headline, “Coronavirus Is Taking a High Toll on Sweden’s Elderly. Families Blame the Government,” The Wall Street Journal detailed disturbing cases in which older patients had been refused hospitalizations. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/corona...rly-families-blame-the-government-11592479430)
As a result, Sweden’s coronavirus deaths skew extremely elderly. Almost two-thirds of deaths occurred in people 80 or over, and almost 90 percent in people 70 or over. The Swedish government has acknowledged that its failure to protect nursing homes was a huge and preventable error.
Overall, the course of the epidemic in Sweden has essentially tracked that of countries like Italy and Spain – a big early spike, followed by a slow decline. The trend suggests lockdowns are irrelevant, and that protecting nursing homes makes far more difference.”

“And Japan never imposed a full national lockdown, instead in April imposing only a partial “state of emergency” that lasted only a few weeks and consisted of largely voluntary restrictions.”

“Yet Japan has had an almost bizarrely easy time with Sars-Cov-2. It has reported about 250 cases per million people, even fewer than New Zealand, and 8 deaths per million – about 1 percent of Britain’s rate.
Why? No one really knows. Many Japanese wear masks in public, especially if they have fever or cough, although masking is far from universal. Authorities also discouraged people from gathering in crowds, in closed spaces like bars, and talking closely – the “three Cs” strategy.
(https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ly_2020-05-26&et_rid=687438071&et_cid=3340566)
If those explanations seem unsatisfying, it’s because they are. But we can be sure lockdowns are not the reason for Japan’s success.”
 
We all agree they did a lousy job protecting their elderly
From
Unreported Truths about Covid-19 and Lockdowns
Alex Berenson

“Sweden’s high death rates were driven almost entirely by the fact that the country didn’t just fail to protect nursing homes but in some cases actually discouraged physicians from offering care to the extremely elderly. In a June article headline, “Coronavirus Is Taking a High Toll on Sweden’s Elderly. Families Blame the Government,” The Wall Street Journal detailed disturbing cases in which older patients had been refused hospitalizations. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/corona...rly-families-blame-the-government-11592479430)
As a result, Sweden’s coronavirus deaths skew extremely elderly. Almost two-thirds of deaths occurred in people 80 or over, and almost 90 percent in people 70 or over. The Swedish government has acknowledged that its failure to protect nursing homes was a huge and preventable error.
Overall, the course of the epidemic in Sweden has essentially tracked that of countries like Italy and Spain – a big early spike, followed by a slow decline. The trend suggests lockdowns are irrelevant, and that protecting nursing homes makes far more difference.”


No, we can't agree on that. Not if you put it like that. Sweden did a lousy job of protecting everybody from getting infected, which is why so many old people had to die. If Sweden hadn't aimed for 'herd immunity' by having as many as possible get infected but at a rate slow enough for the hospitals to keep up with the most serious cases, Sweden wouldn't have had the infection rate that it did (and does), and so people in nursing homes wouldn't have been infected by their care workers to the extent they did.
In two of the three latest flare ups, in Aarhus and Hjørring, nursing homes were affected almost immediately.
You can do something to try to keep the infection out of nursing homes, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as effective as clamping down on the spread in general - the way it was done in New Zealand, for example. Otherwise, you will have to guard the nursing homes from the virus the same way they are guarding Trump from it at the White House. And that's just one guy. Everybody else in that place seems to get infected all the time.

“And Japan never imposed a full national lockdown, instead in April imposing only a partial “state of emergency” that lasted only a few weeks and consisted of largely voluntary restrictions.”

“Yet Japan has had an almost bizarrely easy time with Sars-Cov-2. It has reported about 250 cases per million people, even fewer than New Zealand, and 8 deaths per million – about 1 percent of Britain’s rate.
Why? No one really knows. Many Japanese wear masks in public, especially if they have fever or cough, although masking is far from universal. Authorities also discouraged people from gathering in crowds, in closed spaces like bars, and talking closely – the “three Cs” strategy.
(https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ly_2020-05-26&et_rid=687438071&et_cid=3340566)
If those explanations seem unsatisfying, it’s because they are. But we can be sure lockdowns are not the reason for Japan’s success.”


No, we can't. What exactly was the "partial “state of emergency”" you mention?
I think you need to read up on the Japanese pandemic response:

On 27 February, he requested the temporary closure of all Japanese elementary, junior high, and high schools until early April.
(...)
On 7 April, Abe proclaimed a one-month state of emergency for Tokyo and the prefectures of Kanagawa, Saitama, Chiba, Osaka, Hyogo, and Fukuoka.[10] On 16 April, the declaration was extended to the rest of the country for an indefinite period.
COVIC-19 pandemic in Japan (Wikipedia)

Potato - potahto, lockdown - state of emergency.

Japan appears to have locked down just as much and in some respects more than most Nordic countries. Most of the measures in Denmark were voluntary, too, by the way. In fact, most of them still are, but I hope that they will make wearing face masks in shops and on public transportation mandatory.
That appears to be the most important thing that the Japanese have have done that is different from the Nordic countries, and it seems to have worked wonders.
 
Yesterday, a stand-up comedian, who specializes in satire had been invited to speak in Stuttgart at one of the virus-denier rallies organized by Querdenken 711. (querdenken means thinking outside the box.) The organizers didn't seem to like what he told them, in particular when he ended with:

”Verhindert die Dikatur, indem ihr vernünftig seid! Maske auf! Abstand halten! Nachdenken!”
Prevent the dictatorship by being sensible! Wear face masks! Social distance! Think for yourselves!

 
Sunday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Aug. 9, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 570 (5,763) 41* 34 *356 according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 106 (617) 136 2

Finland: 60 (331) 16 0
Norway: 47 (256) 16 2
Iceland: 29 (10) 3 1
Iceland has 114 active cases, Faroe Islands 88, New Zealand 23.
The Faroe Island had 8 new cases today, but the number of active cases dropped to 88.
 
No, we can't agree on that. Not if you put it like that. Sweden did a lousy job of protecting everybody from getting infected, which is why so many old people had to die. If Sweden hadn't aimed for 'herd immunity' by having as many as possible get infected but at a rate slow enough for the hospitals to keep up with the most serious cases, Sweden wouldn't have had the infection rate that it did (and does), and so people in nursing homes wouldn't have been infected by their care workers to the extent they did.
In two of the three latest flare ups, in Aarhus and Hjørring, nursing homes were affected almost immediately.
You can do something to try to keep the infection out of nursing homes, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as effective as clamping down on the spread in general - the way it was done in New Zealand, for example. Otherwise, you will have to guard the nursing homes from the virus the same way they are guarding Trump from it at the White House. And that's just one guy. Everybody else in that place seems to get infected all the time.

They had almost 90 percent in people over 70 of there fatalities it had nothing to do with no lockdown apparently masks and social distancing don’t work in nursing homes if a strict quarantine was put in place before any cases where transmitted then it possibly might have worked
Compared to states that have around the same population and did have lockdowns but had more deaths

Sweden
Coronavirus Cases:
82,323
Deaths:
5,763

Pen
Coronavirus Cases:
122,666
Deaths:
7,394

Illinois

Illinois
Coronavirus Cases:
195,380
Deaths:
7,845

Georgia
Coronavirus Cases:
216,596
Deaths:
4,199



No, we can't. What exactly was the "partial “state of emergency”" you mention?
I think you need to read up on the Japanese pandemic response:



Potato - potahto, lockdown - state of emergency.

Japan appears to have locked down just as much and in some respects more than most Nordic countries. Most of the measures in Denmark were voluntary, too, by the way. In fact, most of them still are, but I hope that they will make wearing face masks in shops and on public transportation mandatory.
That appears to be the most important thing that the Japanese have have done that is different from the Nordic countries, and it seems to have worked wonders.

Did you try reading the wiki link on Japan’s response to the virus?

Under the law, the Japanese government does not have the authority to enforce citywide lockdowns. Apart from individual quarantine measures, officials cannot restrict the movement of people in order to contain the virus. Consequently, compliance with government requests to restrict movements is based on "asking for public cooperation to ‘protect people’s lives’ and minimize further damage to [the economy]"
It was quarantine on voluntary basis only
 
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<snip>
Did you try reading the wiki link on Japan’s response to the virus?

Under the law, the Japanese government does not have the authority to enforce citywide lockdowns. Apart from individual quarantine measures, officials cannot restrict the movement of people in order to contain the virus. Consequently, compliance with government requests to restrict movements is based on "asking for public cooperation to ‘protect people’s lives’ and minimize further damage to [the economy]"
It was quarantine on voluntary basis only

Japanese people have a reputation for being obedient, orderly, and polite.
A government "suggestion" in Japan is tantamount to giving a direct order that will be followed by the majority.
 
dann said:
– I met a Scottish professor some time ago. He showed med pictures and graphs of the Scottish pandemic and placed them on top of Sweden's graphs. The pictures were exactly alike.
In spite of different strategies?
– Yes, exactly.


You've heard me discuss this previously. The Scottish and Swedish graphs were extremely similar at the time when Scotland was copying whatever England did, and at that time the English plan was for herd immunity on speed. Not only was the virus allowed to run free, it was actually encouraged to spread as fast as possible because BoJo wanted to get the epidemic over and done with fast. For that reason this period was actually worse than Sweden as far as England is concerned. Scotland wasn't quite so bad because the main international airports and ports are in England so we were that wee bit behind when the lockdown happened, and so just happened to parallel Sweden's epidemic. The lockdown was too little too late in the face of the policy of accelerated spread that had preceded it.

However since about mid-May when Scotland diverged from England's strategy we've been doing a lot better and as I said the curves no longer match. We haven't had a confirmed death for over three weeks and at one point our daily average of new cases was under ten per day. We're having a cluster right now that's bumping up the numbers and the underlying prevalence has gone up a little but we're on it and still doing a lot better than Sweden now.
 
Yes, I am aware of that. This is what makes it so bloody absurd. The Swedish epidemiologists would like to prove that lockdowns don't work, and they do so by comparing with Scotland where the lockdown worked. Giesecke isn't exactly open about comparing Sweden with the situation in Scotland before the lockdown because, well, Scotland did have a lockdown at some point and who cares when ...
 
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They had almost 90 percent in people over 70 of there fatalities it had nothing to do with no lockdown apparently masks and social distancing don’t work in nursing homes if a strict quarantine was put in place before any cases where transmitted then it possibly might have worked
Compared to states that have around the same population and did have lockdowns but had more deaths

Sweden
Coronavirus Cases:
82,323
Deaths:
5,763

Pen
Coronavirus Cases:
122,666
Deaths:
7,394

Illinois

Illinois
Coronavirus Cases:
195,380
Deaths:
7,845

Georgia
Coronavirus Cases:
216,596
Deaths:
4,199

You really don't want to learn, do you?! To prove your hypothesis, it might have been a good idea to include the number of cases in nursing homes in those states. However, that might not even work because one of your numbers is completely useless and proves one thing only:
Sweden, Coronavirus Cases: 82,323; Deaths: 5,763
Georgia, Coronavirus Cases: 216,596; Deaths: 4,199

And you could know this without me having to tell you. You would just have had to combine the claims from the sources you have quoted from already in this thread.
Consider this: What did the Swedish doctor tell you about 'herd immunity' in Stockholm? How many people live in Stockholm? How does that number compare to your number of coronavirus cases?
It's amazing, isn't it?!
The only thing your numbers tell us is that they did some testing in Georgia, apparently, and in Sweden they only tested a small fraction of the population. (So did Georgia, I guess, but apparently its fraction of people tested was much larger than Sweden's.)

Did you try reading the wiki link on Japan’s response to the virus?

Under the law, the Japanese government does not have the authority to enforce citywide lockdowns. Apart from individual quarantine measures, officials cannot restrict the movement of people in order to contain the virus. Consequently, compliance with government requests to restrict movements is based on "asking for public cooperation to ‘protect people’s lives’ and minimize further damage to [the economy]"
It was quarantine on voluntary basis only.


So you are claiming that schools didn't lock down? That Japan didn't cancel the Olympics?

Don't let the title of this article fool you. The three C's are not unimportant, but ... :
A list of possible reasons circulating online includes an existing culture of mask-wearing, a lower rate of obesity, the government's early push to close schools, and a claim that speakers of Japanese emit fewer viral droplets than speakers of other languages.
(...)
They also pointed to Japan's robust network of contract tracers who began tracking the spread of the disease in January(...)
Japan didn't enforce shutdowns or social-distancing orders, but it encouraged people to avoid closed spaces with poor ventilation, crowded places with groups of people, and close-contact settings like one-on-one conversations. Japan avoided a lockdown by telling everyone to steer clear of the 3 C's. Here's what that means. (Business Insider, May 28, 2020)
How do you think that works in real life? In particular, how do you think it affects the owners of bars, discos and concert venues when people don't show up because they have been made aware of the dangers of doing so? And why do you think Sweden is so proud of its strategy? In Denmark, discos and concert venues are still locked down - and I hope it remains so until the vaccine is there - but the owners are compensated. If I were the owner of a disco, I'd much prefer that situation instead of trying to keep it open as diminishing numbers of people show up because they are aware that going to the disco is a super-spreader event, which, I guess, was the reason why they remained open in Sweden: It would be in accordance with Sweden's attempts to spread the virus among young people to achieve herd immunity while conveniently forgetting that the same young people would go back to their jobs as care workers in nursing homes the next day! As they write in ScienceMag:
“We try to identify the clusters and [determine] their common characteristics.” Not surprisingly, they found that most clusters originated in gyms, pubs, live music venues, karaoke rooms, and similar establishments where people gather, eat and drink, chat, sing, and work out or dance, rubbing shoulders for relatively extended periods of time. They also concluded that most of the primary cases that touched off large clusters were either asymptomatic or had very mild symptoms. “It is impossible to stop the emergence of clusters just by testing many people,” Oshitani says. This led them to urge people to avoid what they dubbed the “three Cs”—closed spaces, crowds, and close-contact settings in which people are talking face-to-face. It sounds simple. But, “This has been the most important component of the strategy,” Oshitani says. Japan ends its COVID-19 state of emergency (ScienceMag, May 26, 2020)
So let's look at some of the things, apart from the three C's, that Japan did (and still does) and Sweden didn't do: 1) Lockdown of schools 2) Contact tracing 3) Wearing face masks And let's look at some of the things that Sweden did (and still does) but Japan didn't (still doesn't) do: 1) Claiming that children don't spread the virus. 2) Claiming that asymptomatic virus transmission is unimportant (i.e. telling people to stay at home if they have symptoms and assume that they aren't infected if they are asymptomatic) 3) Telling people early on (in March!!!) that there was no reason to worry: It was already peaking and would soon go away. Notice that Sweden to this day still doesn't do contact tracing! Instead, it is left up to people to tell their contacts that they may be infected. This is also the reason why Swedish epidemiologists don't know **** about how the virus spreads in the country, which, of course, enables them to remain ignorant of the spread that takes place in schools: Most children aren't affected much, so outbreak at schools only become apparent when teachers are infected, and even in those cases Sweden doesn't contact trace. Depending on when you begin to tackle the pandemic, there are ways to do so without lockdowns. Japan did it without locking down private businesses, for instance. Iceland and New Zealand didn't lock down much. However, if the infection has already reached a high level - and in particular if you don't have the facilities to start doing TeTrIs fast, lockdowns are the only measure that can hammer down the virus. Sweden, however, didn't do any of those things. Lockdowns have worked everywhere - except in the places where governments had an ambiguous attitude to them and therefore hesitated and switched from 'herd immunity' strategy to lockdowns and back again like in the UK, i.e. in the countries that Sweden prefers to compare itself with. And I almost forgot this: Border enforcement measures to prevent the spread of novel coronavirus (COVID-19) (Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan, July 24, 2020) But Swedes don't think that this measure has any effect. Tegnell has told them that there is no scientific evidence that it does.
 
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Norway transfers some of the Swedish regions that they had opened up for from status green back to red because their levels of infection are too high again.

This again proves that no one (really) knows what is going on. Everyone is guessing. I doubt very much that Sweden knows what it is doing, but just "experimenting" and hoping that if it works the world will bow to us as the saviour. I mean, Norway (m.m.) must have looked at our death rate and listened to our theories .... it sounded good so they let us in. So now what? Is Norway going to let us back in once our death figures go down, ignoring our methods? I don't think so, but .... who knows what they are thinking? The logical conclusion would be that our method is no good but maybe there are other circumstances that do not disprove a solid method. We're all working in the dark.

... perhaps there is more to understand than you know.
Perhaps there is more to understand than you think you know:
All of the above. That's the point.
 
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This again proves that no one (really) knows what is going on. Everyone is guessing. I doubt very much that Sweden knows what it is doing, but just "experimenting" and hoping that if it works the world will bow to us as the saviour. I mean, Norway (m.m.) must have looked at our death rate and listened to our theories .... it sounded good so they let us in. So now what? Is Norway going to let us back in once our death figures go down, ignoring our methods? I don't think so, but .... who knows what they are thinking? The logical conclusion would be that our method is no good but maybe there are other circumstances that do not disprove a solid method. We're all working in the dark.


No, don't say that no one really knows what's going on. There are many things we do know at this point, and there are many we don't know.

What I do know for a fact at this point is that Sweden has been flying blind almost from the beginning and based its strategy on Tegnell's claims about the development of the pandemic. Claims that he often pulled out of his ass based on nothing whatsoever. One of his ridiculous assumptions, for instance, was that Swedes were so superior to all other nationalities that its population of old people probably wouldn't be affected much because old Swedes were healthier than everybody else's old people, and Sweden's health care was superior to health care in Southern Europe. You know, those primitive Mediterraneans just can't cope in comparison with Sweden, so Sweden would never have the number of deaths that Italy had. For some reason, it's a story we don't hear much anymore.

It already helped when the Italian ambassador pulled out statistics that proved the idea of Italian inferiority wrong.

Months ago, Tegnell more or less ordered Denmark to open up its borders for Scanians because the number of infections in Scania allegedly was lower than than the corresponding number in Copenhagen. And it was, of course. It was a fact, but it was also a fact that people in Scania weren't tested nearly as much as people in Copenhagen, which fortunately occurred to the Danish health authorities before they opened up again.

I imagine that Norway very recently opened its borders to people from Scania because it was also fooled by Sweden's appeal to (misleading) statistics.
Throughout this pandemic, Sweden, led by Tegnell, has been trying to prove to the world how well it was doing, and it has been doing so by presenting its misleading statistics to a world, which, for the most part, is unaware how incomparable Sweden's numbers of new cases have been to their own the whole time.

You can't expect journalists to know all the details. In the early months of the Swedish outbreak, for instance, I read Greta Thunberg's story of how she and her father might have had Covid-19! They both got sick, but since Sweden didn't even test people with symptoms, there was no way of knowing if they had had Covid-19 or not. People were only tested when they were hospitalized. A lot of them probably still are. And that is the reason that makes it so ridiculous when Gavin presents this number and expects it to prove something
That is another fact that we can be absolutely sure about.

That is something that we do know, and that is what makes most Swedish claims insane. I am not even sure if Sweden knows about all of its nursing home deaths: When you prescribe palliative care long distance, i.e. by phone, i.e. letting people die in the nursing homes in spite of available beds in ICUs, then I no longer trust anything said by ******** like Tegnell and Giesecke. By the way, this Swedish version of long-distance triage isn't something that I hear Tegnell and Giesecke brag about when they are talking to journalists abroad - or in Sweden. But it is much easier to make foreigners think that the Swedish health-care system wasn't overwhelmed, i.e. that at least this part of the Swedish strategy worked, when you can just point at the Swedish (******* useless) numbers.

You are new to this thread, Clutch Cargo. If you really want to know what has been going on in Sweden for the past several months, you should go back and start at the beginning, April 4, 2020. The story about the Italian ambassador, for instance, is in there somewhere. But you can also choose to take the blue pill and simply believe everything Tegnell and his fanboys tell you. You know, what Gavin seems to be doing.

All of the above. That's the point.


Yes, there is still more to understand, but I think that this is yet another one of Tegnell's and Giesecke's lies you have taken to heart: Because we can't know everything about how this pandemic is going to end until it does, we can't know anything along the way.
That Sweden has been flying blind from the start makes it much easier for them to make this claim, but we still know how Sweden has been flying blind and why: Because that's the way the two ******** wanted it, and they have been busy covering up for it ever since.

I am still amazed that Swedes didn't seem to question Tegnell's authority even when he refused to believe that New Zealand had managed to hammer down the virus as successfully as they did. He declared that it was "impossible!" How can you trust a psychopath like this and let him be in charge of your health and lives? Do you have any reason to trust him other than a need to believe in Swedish exceptionalism?
 
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Well here is a strong article in defence of the eternal dance, herd immunity is a balletic masterpiece, Pavlova and Nureyev?

Covid 19 coronavirus: Will Sweden get the last laugh?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12355353

...you've cited the NZ Herald, but just to make it clear thats a syndicated article from the Daily Mail, where the original headline was "Why Sweden, pilloried by the whole world for refusing to lock down - with schools staying open and no face mask laws - may be having the last laugh as experts say Stockholm is close to achieving herd immunity."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lloried-world-refusing-lock-having-laugh.html

Sweden are not close to achieving herd immunity
 
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