• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Satanic Temple counters anti-abortion regulations

Distinction without a difference. They say point blank that the members make them up to suit their purposes. Surely you can see the legal dick-stepping there?
No, there is a difference (though I'm not quite sure what 'dick-stepping' is).


Other religions dictate rituals,

Unless you believe in supernatural beings, members of the religion create those rituals. Not all religions dictate rituals, either. They may have them available, but they may not be required to be performed. A religion that has been around a long time may already have all the rituals they need, but they were created by members of the religion. Even the Christian church is still inventing rituals.
 
They say point blank that the members make them up to suit their purposes.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Huh ...

Christians have been making stuff up to suit their purposes for ages.
 
The harm, as I see it, is that they have a successful approach to challenge religious obnoxiousness, but are being careless with this one. As I said uphill, they opportunistically made this Abortion Ritual up out of whole cloth, which puts them in a position of possibly being discounted as a legit religion, if members can just make up whatever rituals are convenient to circumvent law. Kind of takes the teeth out of their otherwise valid pose.
I don't think you're getting it. Their "abortion ritual" is "just go have an abortion, jeez," except it explicitly proscribes all the made up Christian abortion rituals like being forced to undergo counseling and mandatory sonograms where you have to listen to the fetus's heartbeat, then having to have a funeral for the fetal material afterward, etc. If a judge throws their case out because it's clearly a made-up thing that has no basis in their religion, well guess what.
 
I don't think you're getting it. Their "abortion ritual" is "just go have an abortion, jeez," except it explicitly proscribes all the made up Christian abortion rituals like being forced to undergo counseling and mandatory sonograms where you have to listen to the fetus's heartbeat, then having to have a funeral for the fetal material afterward, etc. If a judge throws their case out because it's clearly a made-up thing that has no basis in their religion, well guess what.

...I'm not sure those are comparably protected rituals. More like hideously unethical coersion, devoid of religious ritual. Fight it on those grounds.

I want to see TST keep up the good fight. But scamming is scamming, and you have to be careful how you play your hand if you want to stay in the game. Saying 'well, some of our members make stuff up opportunisticly' will not enjoy the same Freedom of Religion protections as established traditions sometimes going back centuries. Again, claiming that you just invented Methamphetamine Communion and expecting religious protection ain't happening.
 
...I'm not sure those are comparably protected rituals. More like hideously unethical coersion, devoid of religious ritual. Fight it on those grounds.

I want to see TST keep up the good fight. But scamming is scamming, and you have to be careful how you play your hand if you want to stay in the game. Saying 'well, some of our members make stuff up opportunisticly' will not enjoy the same Freedom of Religion protections as established traditions sometimes going back centuries. Again, claiming that you just invented Methamphetamine Communion and expecting religious protection ain't happening.
I don't understand the defeatism. You say you want them to "keep up the good fight," but then you denigrate them for trying. You belittle them and call them scammers and liars. You equate a religious practice that's little more than a moment of silence to ritualized meth use. You warn of some unspecified dire consequence of not being taken seriously for asserting their right to religious freedom, as if not defending their rights is how people have ever gotten them.

The legal standard for what constitutes a religious practice is a sincerely held belief. It doesn't have to be communal. It doesn't have to be in scripture. Have you read their abortion ritual? The woman takes a moment of silence and contemplates these three things:

Tenet III. One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
Tenet V. Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
Personal Affirmation.
By my body,
my blood
By my will it is done.

Do you think you would have a problem believing someone asserting these tenets is holding them sincerely?
 
I don't understand the defeatism. You say you want them to "keep up the good fight," but then you denigrate them for trying. You belittle them and call them scammers and liars. You equate a religious practice that's little more than a moment of silence to ritualized meth use. You warn of some unspecified dire consequence of not being taken seriously for asserting their right to religious freedom, as if not defending their rights is how people have ever gotten them.

I like parodists. I hate lying. When the two start dancing cheek to cheek, perhaps you might understand my argument a little more clearly?

The legal standard for what constitutes a religious practice is a sincerely held belief. It doesn't have to be communal. It doesn't have to be in scripture.

The legal standard is broad, but a bit more complicated than that. Quoting below from linked EEOC, because they do a good job of plain-speaking fleshing-out of the issue, on the subject of testing 'sincerely held beliefs':

Factors that – either alone or in combination – might undermine an employee’s assertion that he sincerely holds the religious belief at issue include: whether the employee has behaved in a manner markedly inconsistent with the professed belief;[36] whether the accommodation sought is a particularly desirable benefit that is likely to be sought for secular reasons; whether the timing of the request renders it suspect (e.g., it follows an earlier request by the employee for the same benefit for secular reasons); and whether the employer otherwise has reason to believe the accommodation is not sought for religious reasons.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/section-12-religious-discrimination#_Toc203359486

Have you read their abortion ritual?

Yep. Not even a ritual. Just (paraphrasing from above) a desirable benefit for secular reasons.

The woman takes a moment of silence and contemplates these three things:

Do you think you would have a problem believing someone asserting these tenets is holding them sincerely?

Not at all. But that is not enough to constitute religious protections.

The EEOC article gives good examples for vetting. In one, a woman has piercings and tats. Her employer passes a rule that workers should have no visible ink, etc. She tries for 'sincerely held beliefs' protections. The argument fails.

So my argument ITT is that The Satanic Temple is a great parody front to make a point and get some things done. Like The Flying Spaghetti Monster parody thing, which is great. But there comes a point where (g)you are taking yourself too seriously, and start becoming dishonest. No bueno. Why? Because virtually every problem, large and small in the world, has some son of a bitching liar at the bottom of it. When people start arguing that TST is totes a real religion, dude, they are drifting to the dishonesty camp. They are not a religion. They are parodists who can do good works like getting the 10 Commandments off State property, where they don't belong. Underminng abortion coercion is a good thing too, but if they play this Lulz-puppy game, their edgelord pose will undermine their ability to do good. You get my argument now? well intentioned people getting so full of themselves that they are going to blow it.
 
I would argue that the Satanists are not a parody. I love the parody genre, and one thing they all have in common regardless of what source material they draw from, they are ridiculous. Parodies take the source material to the furthest stretches of possibility for laughs, which would include Pastafarianism because it takes common religious pronouncements and injects pasta references. Satanists have a whole creed that they don't so much base on Christianity as having grown up steeped in it, but it's not set up as a mirror to be exactly like it only reversed. Or for laughs.
 
I would argue that the Satanists are not a parody. I love the parody genre, and one thing they all have in common regardless of what source material they draw from, they are ridiculous. Parodies take the source material to the furthest stretches of possibility for laughs, which would include Pastafarianism because it takes common religious pronouncements and injects pasta references. Satanists have a whole creed that they don't so much base on Christianity as having grown up steeped in it, but it's not set up as a mirror to be exactly like it only reversed. Or for laughs.

I’m not sure you’re talking about the Satanic Temple here, which has nothing to do with Christianity. https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq
 
perhaps you might understand my argument a little more clearly?
...
You get my argument now?
Oh, your argument I get. It's dumb. Back when I asked if you had anything to add besides "but they aren't a real religion," you should have said "no, that about sums it up" and saved us some time. The only thing I'll add to the others' posts is that I'm sure you're familiar with arguments that atheism is just another belief system. This bunch seems to be taking that to its logical conclusion; atheism with religious conviction, making as full a use of the protections granted to religion as they can.

What I don't understand is your defeatism. Do you not agree with this bunch's goals of invalidating Christianity-based abortion restrictions? Then why you gotta be hatin? If they try this and they lose it's their own inverted cross to bear. What's it to you if they "blow it?" It's no skin off your nose.

The legal standard is broad, but a bit more complicated than that. Quoting below from linked EEOC, because they do a good job of plain-speaking fleshing-out of the issue, on the subject of testing 'sincerely held beliefs':

Factors that – either alone or in combination – might undermine an employee’s assertion that he sincerely holds the religious belief at issue include: whether the employee has behaved in a manner markedly inconsistent with the professed belief;[36] whether the accommodation sought is a particularly desirable benefit that is likely to be sought for secular reasons; whether the timing of the request renders it suspect (e.g., it follows an earlier request by the employee for the same benefit for secular reasons); and whether the employer otherwise has reason to believe the accommodation is not sought for religious reasons.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/section-12-religious-discrimination#_Toc203359486
I'm changing the highlight. It seems to me this is saying it would be a terrible idea for the ST to follow your suggestion and "fight the good fight" striking down abortion restrictions on their own merits first, as that would directly undermine the perceived sincerity of their followup religious arguments.

I’m not sure you’re talking about the Satanic Temple here, which has nothing to do with Christianity. https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq
I think SGM was referring to the Christian-focused cultural milieu from which the Satanic Temple pulls its imagery. They might not be Christian or anti-Christian, but Satan, Baphomet, etc are. There's a wealth of potential material in medieval demonology, since the Church at the time would make a different demon for everything they didn't want people doing. My favorite's Belphegor, the demon of good ideas that come to you on the toilet. That's his whole deal.
 
Last edited:
I can see an unexpected and consequential side effect of this.
Suddenly motivating a vast block of evangelical voters who were going to be perfectly content sitting out the upcoming election because Trump reeks of almost everything they hate in this world.
 
I can see an unexpected and consequential side effect of this.
Suddenly motivating a vast block of evangelical voters who were going to be perfectly content sitting out the upcoming election because Trump reeks of almost everything they hate in this world.
I don't think such a block exists. Anyone who'd turn out for Satanists would already be turning out to get another anti-abortion Supreme Court judge. And as far as I'm aware they've made their peace with Trump's sins astonishingly quickly, almost as if the consistency of their morals was vastly overstated.
 
Ugh. By looking good this "Satanic" religion makes us real evil cults look bad. I mean good, but that's bad. You know what I mean. I'm trying to rule the night with goetic terrors and when I emerge from my ritual cave covered in animal blood some random hipster thanks me for my service to humanism. It's hurting our image. Quit biting our style! This is our culture, it's not a costume!
 
The IRS also says my business is an independent financial entity. Guess what? It's not. It's just me. The IRS is not the standard for defining external reality.

No it's not. But it is a government entity that made a legal decision...which sets a precedent.

It's sort of like the scenes from a Miracle on 34th Street.


 
Last edited:
No it's not. But it is a government entity that made a legal decision...which sets a precedent.

It's sort of like the scenes from a Miracle on 34th Street.



Agreed, but we are arguing at two different angles here. Are they a real religion? No, at least to an adult (edgey teens will still do the 'dude they totes are' thing).

Have they gamed the legal definition? Yes, and they should milk that for all its worth.

Btw, pretty sure you know the 34th street argument would not have actually stood in the real world.
 
Agreed, but we are arguing at two different angles here. Are they a real religion? No, at least to an adult (edgey teens will still do the 'dude they totes are' thing).

Have they gamed the legal definition? Yes, and they should milk that for all its worth.

Btw, pretty sure you know the 34th street argument would not have actually stood in the real world.

No, it would actually. In fact we see that kind of legal fiction all the time. How else does a corporation become a person?

Honestly Thermal, I don't know what constitutes a "religion". From what I can tell, it is just a strongly held belief. And I believe strongly that "science rules" I don't pray to science because science doesn't require or ask for prayer or praise. But my belief is as strong as any Catholic kneeling before a priest sticks something in their mouth.

So does the Satanic Temple. I don't see that as a con. In fact, I see the opposite as true. It's more true than anything that Jerry Falwell ever said.
 
Last edited:
The IRS also says my business is an independent financial entity. Guess what? It's not. It's just me. The IRS is not the standard for defining external reality.
A legislature did create the statutory framework of requirements and standards for incorporating such an entity. They met those requirements and were approved.

What is there to object to here?

Your business is not just you. Any property in your sole (private) name cannot be seized to settle damages in a suit involving your business conduct, for example. An exception to that does exist in that if you conduct your private and business life in a slipshod way then a good lawyer can "pierce the veil" and come after you. Then the state might investigate possible fraud/embezzling, etc.
 
Last edited:
No, it would actually. In fact we see that kind of legal fictions all the time. How else does a corporation become a person?

I think the Miracle argument would have fallen flat as a couple employees willfully misdirecting mail without proper vetting and verification of the recipient. Which is a federal offense, of course.

Honestly Thermal, I don't know what constitutes a "religion". From what I can tell, it is just a strongly held belief. And I believe strongly that "science rules" I don't pray to science because science doesn't require or ask for prayer or praise.

I'm not sure the Feds can really nail it down either. They go broad to be inclusive, prob not thinking much about the clever gaming TST uses. The difference may well be in whether the deeply held beliefs are identical to conventional secular beliefs, with nothing substantial to distinguish them from the irreligious. Nature of reality and the universe and whatnot.

But my belief is as strong as any Catholic kneeling before a priest sticks something in their mouth.

:D

So does the Satanic Temple. I don't see that as a con. In fact, I see the opposite as true. It's more true than anything that Jerry Falwell ever said.

Agreed. TST's social/political objectives are solid, and if under the guise of Satan as satire, vaya con dios...or Diablo, maybe. What do you think of this scenario: the Temple wins. Their religious exemption is protected. What happens to the other religions? They just got a great precedent handed to them on a silver platter. Any potential young woman who is creeped out by something called the Satanic Temple is now much more at the mercy of religious influences, freshly precedented. Net win or loss, considering the influence of the Temple versus the influence of pro-lifers?
 
The IRS also says my business is an independent financial entity. Guess what? It's not. It's just me. The IRS is not the standard for defining external reality.

In the US, it is the standard for determining what is or is not a religion.

I suppose that to make a convincing argument that it is not a religion, you need to define what a religion is and how it doesn't fit that definition.

FWIW, the woman who spent 3 years with them filming a documentary initially believed it wasn't a religion, but became convinced that it was.
 

Back
Top Bottom