Cont: The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

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Gavin said:
Though there was no cure, and no vaccine, there was a long incubation period before symptoms would reveal themselves, and while there was a great deal of confusion about how it was transmitted, the thought of locking down an entire state, nation, or world was inconceivable. The concept of a universal “shelter in place” order was nowhere imaginable. Efforts to impose “social distancing” were selective and voluntary.*

https://www.aier.org/article/no-lockdowns-the-terrifying-polio-pandemic-of-1949-52/
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Although not national there certainly were locally imposed lockdowns, usually on a city by city basis, and they worked! And just as now loosening up these regulations prematurely resulted in new outbreaks:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/

More broadly I really am not sure of your argument here. You appear to be suggesting that if mistakes were made in the response to a disease in the past, i.e. not imposing nation level lockdowns during the 1918 flu pandemic, that means we are not allowed to learn from these mistakes and to do so now. Undoubtedly more people’s lives would have been saved in 1918 if the lockdown actions we are taking against covid-19 were more universally applied to flu back then.

It is odd to me when people argue that “we didn’t respond this aggressively to the 1918 flu and it killed way more people than covid-19 has so far.” Well.. Think about that statement carefully - there is an insight inside of it.
 
Giordano said:
I’ll help you: even populations with lower risk of experiencing serious disease symptoms themselves can just as effectively be infected and infect others. So even kids can spread the virus and can infection populations with high risks of experiencing very serious or deadly disease, such as those over 55.

I presume in your other posts you weren’t dismissing the dangers of the disease because it primarily kills older people? I’ve seen that kind of argument by others - presumably those who are very young, think life after 30 is useless, and hate their parents and grandparents.
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I’m saying it’s not deadly as it’s made out to be we have been cramming 100’s of people in Walmart, Lowe’s and Home depo since the beginning of the virus Walmart just recently made masks mandatory we should all be infected by now anyway
 
I notice the command of written English is a tad awkward. Is it possible? Anyone know what the weather's like in Moscow this summer? (Is actually quiet mild is now.)

;)
 
Gavin said:
I’m saying it’s not deadly as it’s made out to be we have been cramming 100’s of people in Walmart, Lowe’s and Home depo since the beginning of the virus
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Maybe where you live. Not in Michigan. We've had pretty significant restrictions. I have been to Home Depot. It isn't the same as it was once upon a time.

Walmart just recently made masks mandatory we should all be infected by now anyway
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What just happened is that Walmart made masks mandatory even in states where masks were not mandatory. Here in Michigan, masks have been mandatory and Wal-Mart, because they have been mandatory everywhere.

So, maybe we can compare infection rates in states that have more restrictions to states with less restrictions.
 
Gavin said:
Their opinions based on her personal political preferences
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Everyone sees the world filtered to some degree by their pre-existing opinions. But I have never observed a severe public health danger, a deadly disease, politicized to the immense extent as Trump and his enablers have done with covid-19.

Listen: whatever the politics of how to respond to the virus there are clear aspects of the science and the mathematics that have no political leanings. The virus causes serious lingering disease and even death in many of its victims. These risks go up with age and other factors but virtually anyone can get sick and spread the disease to others. If r is greater than 1.0 the disease will spread through the population. Unopposed the pandemic will infect 100s of millions and kill millions and millions of people throughout the world.

Social distancing, isolation, wearing masks greatly reduce r, thus avoiding overwhelming the healthcare system and reducing the cases enough to carefully and slowly open back up the society by contact tracing and more selective quarantining. It also buys time for development of vaccines and treatments.

The above statements are not based on political preferences - they are facts.
 
Gavin said:
I’m saying it’s not deadly as it’s made out to be we have been cramming 100’s of people in Walmart, Lowe’s and Home depo since the beginning of the virus Walmart just recently made masks mandatory we should all be infected by now anyway
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Are “we” the locations where the disease and deaths due to it have ignited in the past month?
 
Gavin said:
More than 80% of deaths occur in people aged 65 and over. That increases to over 92% if the 55-64 age group is included.
Over 40% where in nursing homes.
My question was do just stay locked down until there is a vaccine which could be a year or more I suppose we will all be starving and homeless but didn’t get covid
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If the Nation (read: Chump) did the right thing out of the gate, a 6-8 week aggressive shut-down would have the US in much the same position as most others, with the real hardship long past.

But no. A country of too many selfish idiots lead by the worst of the lot could not see sense and apply discipline so that the 'cure' would be swift. Instead you now are a case study in how to screw up a simple task just about everyone else mastered. So now it's just protracted pain and misery for e everyone.

They could still do the right thing, and compress the pain into a shorter period. But will they? Not the new backward, ess-hole country on the block - the U S and A. A diseased pariah that most of the world wants to keep contained behind their own borders.
 
Giordano said:
Everyone sees the world filtered to some degree by their pre-existing opinions. But I have never observed a severe public health danger, a deadly disease, politicized to the immense extent as Trump and his enablers have done with covid-19.

Listen: whatever the politics of how to respond to the virus there are clear aspects of the science and the mathematics that have no political leanings. The virus causes serious lingering disease and even death in many of its victims. These risks go up with age and other factors but virtually anyone can get sick and spread the disease to others. If r is greater than 1.0 the disease will spread through the population. Unopposed the pandemic will infect 100s of millions and kill millions and millions of people throughout the world.

Social distancing, isolation, wearing masks greatly reduce r, thus avoiding overwhelming the healthcare system and reducing the cases enough to carefully and slowly open back up the society by contact tracing and more selective quarantining. It also buys time for development of vaccines and treatments.

The above statements are not based on political preferences - they are facts.
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What does this have do with my quoted message everyone is responding to my comments as if it’s the only thing said here I have covered all of these topics
 
DeSantis can't seem to keep from ******* up.
PALM BEACH, Fla. - As Gov. Ron DeSantis pushed this summer for schools to reopen, state leaders told school boards they would need Health Department approval if they wanted to keep classrooms closed.

Then they instructed health directors not to give it.

Following a directive from DeSantis’ administration, county health directors across Florida refused to give school boards advice about one of the most wrenching public health decisions in modern history: whether to reopen schools in a worsening pandemic, a Gannett USA TODAY NETWORK review found.
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Gavin said:
CDC: "For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death the actual fatality rate is unknown
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities
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The data sets cited are very extensive and complex: the table referred to has over 12000 rows. Did you download, figure out the organization, and analyze the actual data and understand what the 6% really means? Because it doesn’t mean what you think it does.

I’m curious how you found this citation. Your other posts do not suggest that you spend your time deep in the scientific literature on covid-19 epidemiology. Was this a copy and paste from one of the politically oriented “Covid-19 is no big deal” sites that grabs stuff out of context, distorts it, and feeds it into the brains of those already predisposed to believing these sorts of things?
 
Giordano said:
The data sets cited are very extensive and complex: the table referred to has over 12000 rows. Did you download, figure out the organization, and analyze the actual data and understand what the 6% really means? Because it doesn’t mean what you think it does.

I’m curious how you found this citation. Your other posts do not suggest that you spend your time deep in the scientific literature on covid-19 epidemiology. Was this a copy and paste from one of the politically oriented “Covid-19 is no big deal” sites that grabs stuff out of context, distorts it, and feeds it into the brains of those already predisposed to believing these sorts of things?
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Then what do think it means you have offered me nothing disputing the claim?
 
Gavin said:
What does this have do with my quoted message everyone is responding to my comments as if it’s the only thing said here I have covered all of these topics
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Your quoted message was that views of covid-19 were based on political perspectives and my response was to reiterate that there are core facts unrelated to political views.

And I and the other posters here have demonstrated that your comments on the facts have been incorrect, so I felt it important to summarize these facts again.

Funny you are complaining that other posters are not always taking into account your prior posts. First, you having made a prior post doesn’t mean it is now carved in granite as if it were true and the topic is now not to be further discussed. Second, you entered this thread after many pages of discussion, apparently having not read any of it. None of your own posts are novel to the thread and all have already been debunked.
 
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Gavin said:
Then what do think it means you have offered me nothing disputing the claim?
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Because your citation of the 6% figure is out of context. I might be wrong, so why don’t you tell me what the table presents, your interpretative of the data in it, and what the 6% means?

Oh, BTW, you didn’t mention how you found these tables even though I asked.
 
Giordano said:
Because your citation of the 6% figure is out of context. I might be wrong, so why don’t you tell me what the table presents, your interpretative of the data in it, and what the 6% means?

Oh, BTW, you didn’t mention how you found these tables even though I asked.
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I did 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned
 
Gavin said:
I did 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned
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I’ll give you a hint: did you download and look at the tables themselves yet? What specifically were the other factors listed? What were the criteria that assigned all the deaths as corvid-19 related? What was the interpretation by the epidemiologists who specialize in this sort of thing?

Oh, and how did you happen on the tables themselves? They are a rather obscure densely scientific source. Did you find the
link at a “covid-19 denial” site specializing in distorting actual facts and using them to fool their followers?
 
Gavin said:
You where the one accusing me having political motives
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I know this is probably useless but I'll post this one time:

The point is a fair number of Trump supporters are ignoring basic common sense and widely know public health science because they believe for some ignorant reason that not wearing a mask and not social distancing is a worthwhile political statement.

It's like standing on the railroad tracks when a train is coming up behind you proclaiming, if there was a train coming you could hear it. Only you can't hear it and the people around you are trying to tell you the train is coming. But you're going to show them.
 
Thanks.

Gavin said:
More than 80% of deaths occur in people aged 65 and over. That increases to over 92% if the 55-64 age group is included.
Over 40% where in nursing homes.
My question was do just stay locked down until there is a vaccine which could be a year or more I suppose we will all be starving and homeless but didn’t get covid
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As at least one other ISF member has noted, this question implies, or assumes, just one possible course of action ("stay locked down until").

The world we live in, here in the US, presents many, many different sets of actions. Feasible actions.

Many such courses of feasible actions are both effective in greatly reducing the spread of covid and causing only limited (albeit severe) economic consequences. Certainly no increase in deaths by startvation, nor in homelessness.
 
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