Apples to kiwis.
Cont: The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2
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EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
Yet more things, along with Gavin’s argument, that don’t fly?
Why the heck are you so fixated on treating kids as though they are isolated in a world of their own? They transmit disease to their elders. You know, older siblings, parents grandparents, school staff, etc., etc.. And some kids can suffer a life-long impact to health, even if they don't die.
If adults can infect each other to the point of rising death rates, then kids sure as bloody hell are going to contribute at least as well. Thus far the kids' contribution has been kept tamped down due to their being mostly kept out of circulation. Have 'em crowding together in schools and it'll be much the same as the way they flood society with other cold and flu viruses.
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
To poke more at that...
COVID-19 and children: Doctors see link between virus and neurological side effects
Emerging research highlights a connection between COVID-19 and significant neurological effects in young brains.
Personally, I'm not going to push either for or against school re-openings, given that I see parents being trapped between a rock and a hard place on that, but... ugh. If parents send their kids to school and a very noticeable portion of their kids end up with brain damage as a result, especially when amplified with social media as it definitely will be, that's pretty much guaranteed to end very, very badly on a notably larger scale.
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Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
I'm reminded of the people who concluded that Y2K was never a problem because very little went wrong on 1/1/2000. That this was the result of the enormous effort that went into fixing it is entirely ignored.
Given the number of deaths that have occurred despite the lockdowns, I shudder to think what the death toll would now be without them.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200626114746.htm
"Our data is compiled from 131 studies and encompasses 7,780 patients who span the pediatric age spectrum,"
19% of the pediatric population with COVID-19 had no symptoms.
21% exhibited patchy lesions on lung X-rays.
5.6% suffered from co-infections, such as flu, on top of COVID-19.
3.3% were admitted to intensive care units.
Seven deaths were reported.
And, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, death is not the only consequence.
One of the many facts you seem eager to overlook is that covid has long-term severe consequences that don't result in death. As many as 20% of people diagnosed with covid symptoms need to be hospitalized. Even the ones who don't die can suffer long-term damage to their lungs, hearts and brains. One big difference between covid and flu is that when you get over flu, which happens to about 99.9 percent of people who get it, you go back to normal. Not so with this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...3c3534-bbca-11ea-8cf5-9c1b8d7f84c6_story.html
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/coronavirus-long-term-effects-on-the-body_l_5e9a0017c5b6ea335d5b3cf3
https://www.vox.com/2020/5/8/21251899/coronavirus-long-term-effects-symptoms
And children don't get a free pass:
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200514/covid19-may-trigger-rare-complication-in-children
Link was slightly broken fixed it in the quote
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...eorgia-school-reopening-photo-paulding-county
Won't they be leaving themselves open to lawsuits?
Workplace Safety?
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
What I find bizarre is comparing Swine Flu with Coronavirus. According to WebMD,
Covid-19 has claimed almost 160,000 American lives since February. But if you value diversity of opinion, at least we have someone parroting the trump/right wing line. Covid-19 is no big deal. People die everyday from all kinds of things. Not a very compelling argument but they don't have a whole lot to work with.
Covid-19 has claimed almost 160,000 American lives since February. But if you value diversity of opinion, at least we have someone parroting the trump/right wing line. Covid-19 is no big deal. People die everyday from all kinds of things. Not a very compelling argument but they don't have a whole lot to work with.
Belz...
Fiend God
So what?
Those 160,000 people don't matter because more people die of other causes? What kind of logic is that?
We usually try to diminish deaths from various causes. In the case of heart disease you have diet and medication and exercise and whatnot, and in the case of a new disease you have other means to keep it in check. I don't see what you think the problem is.
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
I mentioned reading on a right wing blog, it was linked here, the author writing that x number of people die every year in traffic accidents, x number of people die every year from heart disease, yet we don't shutdown the economy. Then he went on to write how he couldn't understand the difference.
He seemed like a person of at least average intelligence -- and the difference isn't especially hard to understand -- but he had a political motive for writing what he wrote. End-of-story. You can't get these people 'off-message.' Don't expect these people to engage in a rational back-and-forth discussion. They're not looking for a discussion. They're messengers.
He seemed like a person of at least average intelligence -- and the difference isn't especially hard to understand -- but he had a political motive for writing what he wrote. End-of-story. You can't get these people 'off-message.' Don't expect these people to engage in a rational back-and-forth discussion. They're not looking for a discussion. They're messengers.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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I see that swallowing bleach isn't even on your list. Therefore, since swallowing bleach doesn't kill many people at all, it's perfectly safe to swallow bleach....
Doesn't make sense, eh?
Neither does your argument.
Ulf Nereng
Muse
The daily death toll in US of heart disease is about 1774. During the peak in NY and NJ the daily death toll was much higher than that (2749 on apr 21), before the lockdown there brought the numbers down. And that was only NY and NJ. We can only guess what the daily numbers would have been if no lockdown had been implemented. Now try to imagine the daily numbers with no mitigating efforts anywhere in all of US. Would you wait untill the number had surpassed the yearly number of heart disease before doing anything to stop it?
Yesterdays number of Covid-related deaths in the US was 1311 according to Worldometer and states are locking down again. Do you really need to see the death toll surpass the heart disease death toll before you'll agree that something needs to be done?
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Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
Only if you mean the bird, rather than the fruit! I was thinking apples to carburetors, myself.
Gavin is apparently parroting "facts" from some right-wing website.
This way of thinking has been rebutted many times upthread. It is depressing to have to go through it again. But the key point is that Covid-19 adds to these other deaths, substantially so. And the 160,000 Covid deaths in the USA are a fraction of what would have been, or still can be, if control measures had not been instituted.
But let me just put it this way: if one could abolish all deaths due to strokes wouldn’t that be a fabulous advance in medicine? Preventing an even greater number of Covid-19 deaths is just as important.
1. Children are often severely impacted by Covid-19 even if it is not lethal for most.
2. More so, children spread the disease throughout the greater population.
Israel’s experience with opening schools:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
Thanks! Here is audio of school administrators threatening students with "consequences" if the post embarrassing stuff on social media. They really need to learn about the Streisand effect.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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The fact is If we simply just recklessly ignore the dangers of COVID, the numbers will cimb much much higher because we are already at hospital breaking point. There are not enough beds, doctors and nurses to care for even higher levels of infection. We will simply be sending people home to live or to die on their own.
To paraphrase America's greatest moral philosopher, Bruce Springsteen, "Everybody dies, and that's a fact..." Trumpers like Gavin seem to think that if all causes of death can't be eliminated, none should be. Chances are he would be arguing against seat belts, air bags, OSHA regulations, traffic laws, building codes, preventative health care etc. on the same basis.
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Safe-Keeper
My avatar is not a Drumpf hat
...and? What's your point? do you even know yourself?
"Wait, why are you opening that umbrella?!"
"Uhm, because it's started to rain."
"But we're not getting wet!"
"Um, yeah, you're under the umbrella with me."
"So you're just going to stand under this dumb thing forever?"
"Um, no, I can close it when it stops raining."
"But your rights! Why are you being such a sheep? If someone asked me to open am umbrella I'd shoot them!"
This is what arguing with you people feels like.
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