JFK Conspiracy Theories VII: Late November back in '63...

[MicahJava]

How do the conspiracy guys and gals explain the bullet tumbling when entering John Connally? I don't think I've ever seen the point addressed by those who discount the single bullet fact.

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/BigLieSmallWound/BigLieSmallWound.htm

 

[HSienzant]

How do the conspiracy guys and gals explain the bullet tumbling when entering John Connally? I don't think I've ever seen the point addressed by those who discount the single bullet fact.

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/BigLieSmallWound/BigLieSmallWound.htm

That's hilarious.

She writes:

But the[y] can't even prove it [the SBT] hypothetically because the sniper's nest and the various wounds of Kennedy and Connally do not line up.​

Please cite for where her claim is established. Thanks very much.

Regarding the bullet tumbling, SHE quotes Doctor Shaw as saying:

Dr. Shaw. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling.​

Hank

 

[TahiniBinShawarma]

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/BigLieSmallWound/BigLieSmallWound.htm

"Shaw felt that the shape of the bullet was explained either by a “slight tumbling,” or by it striking at a tangent."

This article does nothing to address the tumbling bullet. It tries to convince you the bullet was peachy keen normal when it hit John Connally, using testimony from a guy who said "Shaw felt that the shape of the bullet was explained either by a “slight tumbling" and also said, "I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert."

 

[HSienzant]

Yes! The conspiracy crowd always attribute Oswald's hiring to Ruth Paine, when in actuality it was Lillie Mae Randle who was the sister of Wesley Frazier.

They all had a hand in it. There were four neighborhood women who had gotten together and were shooting the breeze when the conversation turned to Lee still looking for a job. One was a neighbor named Dorothy Roberts. The other three were Marina Oswald, Linnie Mae Randle, and Ruth Paine.

Here's what Linnie Mae Randle recalled:

Mr. BALL. But on this one occasion she was in the house, Mrs. Roberts' house?
Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Roberts.
Mr. BALL. With Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Roberts and yourself?
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.
Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband Lee Oswald?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of course. I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any work, so they said, so it was just--
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation.
Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation?
Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak.
Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book Depository as a place he might get a job?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work.
So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that he had even tried any place that we mentioned.
Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service.
Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I mentioned those.
Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there.
Mr. BALL. But did you mention it?
Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening.​

Marina Oswald testified to this:

Mr. RANKIN. You said before that you learned about the depository job at some neighbor's home, it that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. In whose home was that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know her last name. When you walk out of the Paine house, it is the first house to the right. I am trying to remember. Perhaps later I will.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that was a guest there?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps you know the name.
Mr. RANKIN. We don't know the name of the lady next door. We know a number of names, but not by the location.
Mrs. OSWALD. Her first name is Dorothy. And there was another woman there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there.
Mr. RANKIN. And what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked at the depository?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mrs. Randle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I might know her first name if you mention it.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there a Linnie Mae Randle that you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Was she a sister of Mr. Frazier?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know such people.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know a Mr. Frazier that had a job at the depository?
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know his name. I knew that it was a young man. I don't think he was 18 yet.
Mr. RANKIN. And was he the brother of this friend who was at the neighbor's house?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And he was the one that your husband rode from Irving into Dallas from time to time to go to work, did he?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, after Lee was already working this boy would bring Lee and take him back with him to Dallas.​

And Ruth Paine said:

Mr. JENNER - You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE - I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said--
Mr. JENNER - You mean the call was transferred by the operator?
Mrs. PAINE - To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.
Mr. JENNER - Which made sense.
Mrs. PAINE - Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.
Mr. JENNER - Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Only the one?
Mrs. PAINE - Only the one.
Mr. JENNER - What was the date of this call?
Mrs. PAINE - Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.
Mr. JENNER - What day of the week is October 14?
Mrs. PAINE - It is a Monday.
Mr. JENNER - Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE - Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.
Mr. JENNER - In the evening?
Mrs. PAINE - In the early evening.
Mr. JENNER - Did you talk with him?
Mrs. PAINE - Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me to tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to.​

There are minor discrepancies throughout the accounts. For example, Mrs. Randle spoke of multiple jobs being mentioned, and Ruth Paine cautioning that jobs that required a car to get to or as part of the job would be out, as Lee didn't drive and didn't have a license. Ruth didn't recall that part of the conversation at all.

Another is that Marina spoke of Mrs. Randle saying there was a vacancy at the Depository, but Randle said she didn't know of one for certain, just that her brother had been recently hired there.

It's these minor contradictions that are the lifeblood of any conspiracy theory. From this they ratchet up to suggesting that the witness flubbed their lines, and forgot what they were supposed to say. And from that, of course, they then suggest a conspiracy to kill Kennedy and frame Oswald.

MicahJava does this all the time with the medical testimony, quoting some recollection given to the ARRB (about a third of a century after the assassination) with something a doctor at Parkland recalled in testimony to the Warren Commission (months after the assassination), then cites something to the HSCA fifteen years after the assassination. When he's done, he's got a jumbled mess that he convinces himself somehow makes sense.

Anyone with half a brain understands that contradictions between witnesses, especially in testimony given months or years later, is a normal occurance and more than likely indicates the witnesses are giving their honest recollections.

But CTs cannot abide that argument, so they ignore it.


Hank

 

[bknight]

Yes! The conspiracy crowd always attribute Oswald's hiring to Ruth Paine, when in actuality it was Lillie Mae Randle who was the sister of Wesley Frazier.

How do the conspiracy guys and gals explain the bullet tumbling when entering John Connally? I don't think I've ever seen the point addressed by those who discount the single bullet fact.

It should not be so difficult for anyone, including CTs, that bullets once they encounter any mass loose a bit of momentums, rifling and directionality. So there should not be any questions that the bullet could have been slightly tumbling such that the entrance wound not be identical to the exit wound.

MJ has made many attempts to cite various CT authors that put into question many aspects of the assassination by pointing out what they(CTs) minor discrepancies in the body if all the investigations. While minor discrepancies "seem" to exist, further research dispels them, but the CTs ignore that and instead continue to cite them as if they are the Holy Grail of the assassination.

 

[TahiniBinShawarma]

That's hilarious.

She writes:

But the[y] can't even prove it [the SBT] hypothetically because the sniper's nest and the various wounds of Kennedy and Connally do not line up.​

Please cite for where her claim is established. Thanks very much.

Regarding the bullet tumbling, SHE quotes Doctor Shaw as saying:

Dr. Shaw. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling.​

Hank

Additionally, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juyYn9eDSHg at the 54 minute mark, Blakey talks about the HSCA hiring someone from NASA who did a study which produced the attached picture of where the shot came from based on the wounds involved, position of the victims, and trajectory.

 

[TahiniBinShawarma]

It should not be so difficult for anyone, including CTs, that bullets once they encounter any mass loose a bit of momentums, rifling and directionality. So there should not be any questions that the bullet could have been slightly tumbling such that the entrance wound not be identical to the exit wound.

It also explains the condition of the bullet found. By the time it hit any bone, the bullet had basically passed through 2 people and lost a significant amount of momentum.

 

[HSienzant]

Additionally, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juyYn9eDSHg at the 54 minute mark, Blakey talks about the HSCA hiring someone from NASA who did a study which produced the attached picture of where the shot came from based on the wounds involved, position of the victims, and trajectory.

http://www.internationalskeptics.co...attachmentid=42582&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1594521868

That 'someone' was Thomas Canning, a "Staff Engineer for the Space Projects Division of NASA Ames Research Center".
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/canning.htm

A reasonable person would look at the photographic image you provide and conclude that it is strong evidence that the shots that struck the victims came from the sniper's nest location.

But of course, since the margin of error is greater than just the sniper's nest window, there are CTs who contend that some or all of the shots could have come from elsewhere, like the Dal-Tex Building across the street and to the right of the Depository in the photo cited.

Of course, that CT argument ignores the consilience of evidence recovered.

Like the only bullets or bullet fragments recovered that were large enough and had sufficient lands and grooves to match ballistically, were determined to have been fired from Oswald's weapon, to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.

Like there were about ten witnesses who saw a rifle, a shooter, or a man shortly before the assassination in one of the upper floors of the Depository at the southeasternmost window, but no witnesses who saw a shooter in the Dal-Tex Building.

Like the only shells recovered were found on the sixth floor at the southeasternmost window, and they were determined to have been fired from Oswald's weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.

Like the only weapon recovered in Dealey Plaza that day was determined to be Oswald's rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository, linked to him by a further consilience of evidence, including business paperwork showing the weapon was shipped to his PO Box, a money order in his handwriting showing he paid for the weapon, photographs with his own camera showing him with that weapon, and his fingerprints on the trigger guard.

Like there was even a paper bag found in the sniper's nest corner bearing Oswald's fingerprints, helping to establish (along with two witnesses who saw him with a long paper bag that morning) how Oswald brought the weapon to the Depository.​

None of the above matters to conspiracy theorists with an abiding faith in a conspiracy, of course, because all three of the circles extend beyond the Depository.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

Heh...Oliver Stone is returning to this subject:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...-1303051?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Here's the relevant quote to save clicking the link:

Still, Stone is not done completely with making movies, saying he is in the midst of a couple of documentaries. "One is on J.F.K. Since the film came out in 1991, there's been quite a bit of new material revealed that people have basically ignored. It's a hell of a story."

My breath... Baited it is...[said in Yoda voice].

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Heh...Oliver Stone is returning to this subject:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...-1303051?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Here's the relevant quote to save clicking the link:



My breath... Baited it is...[said in Yoda voice].

I think his quote is spot on. Just not the way intends we should take it. If anything, my residual niggling doubts about the Lone Gunman Theory have been answered in recent years.

 

[bknight]

Heh...Oliver Stone is returning to this subject:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...-1303051?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Here's the relevant quote to save clicking the link:



My breath... Baited it is...[said in Yoda voice].

I'm sorry did I miss something important to the case that old Ole sees?

 

[Axxman300]

I'm sorry did I miss something important to the case that old Ole sees?

I think Phase 255 of the JFK Assassination will focus on the documents where someone called the US Embassy in England to warn something might happen in Texas (but with no specifics). And the CIA Mexico City Station memo to Langley suggesting that the CIA tell the FBI about Oswald's visits to the Cuban and Soviet Embassy, but the intel was never passed along. Not that it mattered, the Dallas FBI office was notified - by accident - by Customs agents in New Orleans about Oswald's Mexico City adventures...and then the FBI failed to mention this to the Secret Service, who would have sat on Oswald while the President was in Texas.

Out of all of the documents I read, this is full back story on how Oswald was allowed to be at the TSBD on November 22, 1963. It's also how 19 Al Qaeda operatives lived in the US before hijacking four commercial jets and flew them into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Shanksville.

Almost as if there is a systemic communication problem between the FBI and CIA. Weird, right?

 

[Hans]

Gentlemen, long time reader if this thread(s) I wonder if I might call upon the experts here to aid me in something related to the JFK assassination?

I decided that I would put into a book about a British Resident (Political agent) to the Maharajah of Samaraphore in 1839 a part about the history of the place to include his grandfather being assassinated - using the basis of Dealey plaza and the Kennedy assassination cleverly disguised in Indian terms.

I want to cram as many references to the assassination as I can into around three paragraphs.

You fine fellows are the experts so you are obvious the people to ask! So, if you agree I will post three paragraphs and see if you have any suggestions? Or if anyone would like to volunteer, we can do it by PM. Thanks

 

[MicahJava]

Gentlemen, long time reader if this thread(s) I wonder if I might call upon the experts here to aid me in something related to the JFK assassination?

I decided that I would put into a book about a British Resident (Political agent) to the Maharajah of Samaraphore in 1839 a part about the history of the place to include his grandfather being assassinated - using the basis of Dealey plaza and the Kennedy assassination cleverly disguised in Indian terms.

I want to cram as many references to the assassination as I can into around three paragraphs.

You fine fellows are the experts so you are obvious the people to ask! So, if you agree I will post three paragraphs and see if you have any suggestions? Or if anyone would like to volunteer, we can do it by PM. Thanks

You're going to have a scene where someone gets shot in a JFK-style ambush? Maybe have a reference to the Mr. and Mrs. Neuman, who ducked on the ground and shielded their children because of their perception that shots were fired from behind them.

 

[Axxman300]

You're going to have a scene where someone gets shot in a JFK-style ambush? Maybe have a reference to the Mr. and Mrs. Neuman, who ducked on the ground and shielded their children because of their perception that shots were fired from behind them.

More crackerjack research I see.

It's Newman, not "Neuman".

Bill turned to Gayle and said hit the ground, which they did as can be seen in the photos. “The reason I responded like that was because the ground behind us was a higher elevation and I had the sensation that the third shot came from over the top of our heads, which would have meant we were in the line of gunfire.“

https://www.hsvvoice.com/news/20180522/newmans-remember-witnessing-kennedy-assassination---part-i

He's not wrong. The TSBD was behind him over his left shoulder. The other two shots came before the car passed him. The third one right past him, and what heard was the sonic boom reflecting off the wall behind him.

Plus, he only heard two shots.

Acoustics is fun.

 

[Allen773]

What’s the status of the “LBJ and George HW Bush were involved in the JFK assassination” conspiracy theories? Or Ted Cruz’s father?

When will Very Stable Genius Donald Trump reveal the super-secret CIA/Deep State files? I’m waiting.

 

[Allen773]

deleted (duplicate post)

 

[Axxman300]

What’s the status of the “LBJ and George HW Bush were involved in the JFK assassination” conspiracy theories? Or Ted Cruz’s father?

When will Very Stable Genius Donald Trump reveal the super-secret CIA/Deep State files? I’m waiting.

Heh...he still hasn't signed off on the handful of records which were held back, but that's more the FBI and CIA not having their act together. Trump didn't study history, doesn't care about history, and that's why he's so inept.

 

[Allen773]

Spekaing of JFK conspiracy theorists, let's see what Oliver Stone is up to these days:

"Jesus Christ, do you think everybody in the country has to believe this Russian election stuff?" Stone asked. "Do you think we all have to agree? Does anybody have any ability to dissent from an opinion? Is it a fact that that happened? I mean, if you talk to a lot of the intelligent people in the cyber community — and I have because I did a film about Edward Snowden [2016's Snowden] — they will tell you that it was not a hack, it was a steal, it was an inside job [referring to the hack of Democratic National Committee emails, which were then leaked ahead of the 2016 Democratic National Convention]."

Stone continued, "And [the now-incarcerated WikiLeaks founder] Julian Assange has been good on his word ever since he started; he's been an authentic person. I admire him deeply. To say that he was in collusion with the Russians and all this is part of some kind of crazy fiction that has happened to this country. You probably believe it. You have no choice but to believe it."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/r...terfere-2016-us-presidential-election-1305471

"You have no choice but to believe it."

Gee, thanks, Oliver.

 

[bknight]

Spekaing of JFK conspiracy theorists, let's see what Oliver Stone is up to these days:

"You have no choice but to believe it."

Gee, thanks, Oliver.

Another CT loon an easy target to poke holes in.