Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Cavemonster]

Now you're talking about sex, not gender


Gender and gender norms aren't the same thing.

It's quite obvious at this point that "gender" doesn't really mean anything unless it's tied to another concept.

Third genders seem very much to be a question of gender, how are they not?

And people with ambiguous genitalia show that gender is not merely a category that goes along with sex and we've been dealing with ouliers and ambiguity for a long time. Their genitalia may be part of a question of sex, but the decision by them or their parents to "Live as a _____" is a question of gender, and it shows the messiness of gender.

As far as policing of gender roles, I don't know how we can say they are unrelated to gender or ambiguity of gender. People gluing uncomfortable bows to their babies heads because it's very important to them that strangers assign the correct pronoun and KNOW that their baby is a girl even though there is nothing about babies that unambiguously announces their gender if you're not looking at their genitals or DNA until parents take great pains to wrap them in gender role announcing symbols.

 

[Emily's Cat]

SuburbanTurkey clearly stated that people who aren't feminine are not women, and people who aren't masculine are not men. That's about as regressive as it gets and an idea gays and lesbians have been fighting against for decades. It also shows us that the so-called "TERFs" are right when they say that this ideology, when challenged, immediately degenerates into regressive sex-stereotyping.

Hey - not just lesbians and gay men have been fighting this battle. Lots of hetero women have been fighting it to, along with a good smattering of hetero men. Like... oh I dunno... men who want to have full custody of their children after a divorce, men who want to work in the field of nursing, men who want to be involved in early childhood caregiving.... Stuff like that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

FYI - I just now got to the mod post about keeping this on topic for the specific OP item.

 

[Babbylonian]

Bit of a side-note, but related nonetheless...

Do you feel that it's homophobic for straight men to refuse to allow gay male strippers to dance at the local strip club?

Do you think it would be reasonable and appropriate for gay men to demand that playboy and hustler include spreads of naked men in their magazines, because some men are attracted to men, and porn mags are required to cater to all men?

How about we put off dealing with your hypothetical situations until we deal with the actual, very simple situation we're dealing with: It it reasonable that intransigent scumbags can't handle addressing and describing other people the way those other people want?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Things are what they are, regardless of what words we use to try to describe them. Every definition is just an attempt to convey an idea of what we think we know about a thing. There is disagreement sometimes about what we think we know about a thing, and the labels used to describe it. If you think about it, what's really surprising is that people don't disagree about a lot more definitions.

Welcome to ISF, where most of our arguments are about definitions!

 

[Emily's Cat]

My impression is that the overwhelming majority of pro-gay people are also pro-trans. I don't have any data for that, it's just a gut instinct.

Well, except for the cis-women lesbians who get bashed and harassed as bigots because they don't want to have sex with transwomen who have penises.

 

[d4m10n]

Things are what they are, regardless of what words we use to try to describe them. Every definition is just an attempt to convey an idea of what we think we know about a thing. There is disagreement sometimes about what we think we know about a thing, and the labels used to describe it. If you think about it, what's really surprising is that people don't disagree about a lot more definitions.

If an alien species were to conduct an abduction-and-breeding program upon human beings (say, in the vain hope of Uplift) they would have to come up with words (or non-linguistic concept markers) denoting "human female" and "human male" in order to pull it off. We could try to persuade them that the process of sexual reproduction is not binary in our species, but I doubt they would find our arguments persuasive, given their end goals. There is an objective reality to be observed here, and one need not understand any given human culture in order to do so.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No argument from me here.

Still, you realise that Emily was characterising Tyr's argument, right? Just making sure we're on the same frequency, here.

She quoted something I said on page 2, I'm not about to wade back that far. I've run out of interest, I've said what I felt like saying. Time to move on.

In this case, no I wasn't characterizing Tyr's argument. I was actually thrown for a loop by TM's post. It seems like an odd way to look at it. It's not even a case of me having a strong feeling for or against it, more that it's a commentary on a post I found a bit confusing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You do realize that you specifically defined woman in a way the excluded women who have had hysterectomies as it was synonymous with having a vagina and cervix? Clearly you do not view women who have had hysterectomies as fully woman as you exclude them from your own examples.

Do you read?

Some female people can gestate babies.
All people who gestate babies are female.
No people who are not female can gestate babies.

 

[Belz...]

Third genders seem very much to be a question of gender, how are they not?

You talked about genitalia. That's not gender, or so I hear.

And people with ambiguous genitalia show that gender is not merely a category that goes along with sex and we've been dealing with ouliers and ambiguity for a long time.

That doesn't follow at all. If gender and sex are two distinct things, then genitalia has nothing to do with the former. So are they distinct things?

As far as policing of gender roles, I don't know how we can say they are unrelated to gender or ambiguity of gender.

I don't know either, which is why I didn't say that. I told you that gender and gender norms are not the same thing. Do you notice the difference?

 

[Belz...]

Do you read?

Oh, I've got this one: no, he doesn't.

 

[TragicMonkey]

If an alien species were to conduct an abduction-and-breeding program upon human beings (say, in the vain hope of Uplift) they would have to come up with words (or non-linguistic concept markers) denoting "human female" and "human male" in order to pull it off.

If they hadn't encountered sexual reproduction before they would likely just say "it looks like we need things like THIS one and another thing like THAT one". "How can you tell them apart? They look pretty similar to me." "Just pick ones close to the pictures provided in the PowerPoint presentation, and hope for the best."

We could try to persuade them that the process of sexual reproduction is not binary in our species, but I doubt they would find our arguments persuasive, given their end goals.

Who claimed that reproduction wasn't binary? Is gender now coming from reproduction mechanics? Because further up thread that was not the case.

There is an objective reality to be observed here, and one need not understand any given human culture in order to do so.

Objective reality is that lumps of matter and energy are floating in space in various arrangements. Reality don't care what you call anything, even if it's rude as hell.

 

[Cavemonster]

You talked about genitalia. That's not gender, or so I hear.

The fact that intersex people traditionally have chosen (or had chosen for them) to live "as" a certain gender regardless of their reproductive organs or chromoasomes speaks to the fact that gender identity is not simple. I'm not sure what part of that is confusing to you. To speak of the way that we have known gender is not always simple, we need to speak of the way that gender identity has not always been determined by being one of two biological sexes.

That doesn't follow at all. If gender and sex are two distinct things, then genitalia has nothing to do with the former. So are they distinct things?

You seem to have a weird blind spot for the difference between the question of whether things are distinct and the question about whether or not they are related.

The US senaate is distinct from the laws of the US. But they are related. You can't really talk in depth about how the senate works without talking about laws. Likewise, as I said, you can't talk about how gender is not straightforward in culture without referring to how gender relates to sex.

I don't know either, which is why I didn't say that. I told you that gender and gender norms are not the same thing. Do you notice the difference?

I do, but why keep mentioning "Gender is not the same thing as sex or gender roles" when no one here is trying to say they are the same thing? You're corresting a mistake no one is making.

 

[d4m10n]

Who claimed that reproduction wasn't binary?

The folks who keep insisting that "sex isn't binary" if sex is taken to mean a particular process of reproduction.

Is gender now coming from reproduction mechanics?

To the extent that masculine and feminine social expectations have been foisted upon people who produce tiny motile germ cells and large immobile germ cells (respectively), um, yes.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The folks who keep insisting that "sex isn't binary" if sex is taken to mean a particular process of reproduction.

Then I suggest you ask them, not me, since I haven't said that.

To the extent that masculine and feminine social expectations have been foisted upon people who produce tiny motile germ cells and large immobile germs cells (respectively), um, yes.

Social expectations are frequently very silly, though. There are social expectations based on skin color, speech habits, hair length, body type, mass, age, clothing...the list is endless of what people imagine about people, and most of it's pretty ridiculous. I don't think social expectations are a good authority to appeal to.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

I was so curious about that, thanks for sharing.

 

[Belz...]

The fact that intersex people traditionally have chosen (or had chosen for them) to live "as" a certain gender regardless of their reproductive organs or chromoasomes speaks to the fact that gender identity is not simple.

And now you're talking about gender identity. You just don't seem to know what you want to argue.

I'm not sure what part of that is confusing to you.

What's confusing me is that you use all four of these terms (sex, gender, gender role and gender identity) interchangeably. They are not equivalent.

You seem to have a weird blind spot for the difference between the question of whether things are distinct and the question about whether or not they are related.

Did you just "no, you!" me?

you can't talk about how gender is not straightforward in culture without referring to how gender relates to sex.

In the broader discussion, sure. But you're using an argument for one as if it applies to the other. That's just bad thinking.

I do, but why keep mentioning "Gender is not the same thing as sex or gender roles" when no one here is trying to say they are the same thing? You're corresting a mistake no one is making.

You're making it. The fact that you don't realise it probably means that you cannot competently discuss this issue.

 

[Meadmaker]

How about we put off dealing with your hypothetical situations until we deal with the actual, very simple situation we're dealing with: It it reasonable that intransigent scumbags can't handle addressing and describing other people the way those other people want?

I had to laugh at the word "reasonable" being found in such close proximity to "intransigent scumbags".

 

[Belz...]

I want to be described as Master of the World.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Do you read?

What is the problem with pointing out that they are not female, you claim there is nothing insulting or problematic about it, so why the vehemence with making it mandatory that these questionable cases be included? This is about accuracy and biology after all nothing that anyone should find insulting.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Who claimed that reproduction wasn't binary? Is gender now coming from reproduction mechanics? Because further up thread that was not the case.

Reproduction makes a nice bright line binary, yet you actually base decisions on this and people think you are being horrible for telling people they are not men or women anymore due to various surgeries or birth defects.