Non-binary identities are valid

[Robin]

I seem to recall circling this roundabout with you previously, Robin.

It's no more an expressible feeling now than it was then. You can't tell me what it feels like to smell roses, and I can't tell you what it feels like to be male.

But at least I would know that what it is like to smell roses pertained to the feeling you get when you are near some roses giving off odor. If you said that you felt like you were smelling roses every time you were near oranges and that you felt like you were smelling oranges every time you were near roses then I should probably think that you were simply labelling these experiences wrongly.

All that can be said, is if you're sure you're sure, and if you're not, then nonbinary could be the gender identity that sits best with you.

But, as I said before, if someone asks me if I am Category A or Category B and gives me no more information about what those categories might refer to then i would definitely be unsure about which category I fit into.

That fact would not say anything at all about the likelihood that I am in some spectrum between the two. I might be neither category A nor category B nor in any spectrum between the two.

How would I know?

Try it on for size and if you don't like it, ...

But I don't even have the beginnings of a clue about what it is that I should be trying on for size.

...go back to identifying in agreement with your genitals.

I can't seem to make you understand what is the problem with that.

If a trans man were to ask me if I accept him as a man then of course I should say "yes".

If a trans man were to ask me if I consider him a man in exactly the same sense that I consider myself a man then if I were to take your above suggestion then I would have to say "no".

The point is that I would not want to be in that situation. I would want to understand and accept the trans man, but there is simply no way for me to do that.

 

[Robin]

If we run the bisexual analogy again, there is plenty of what might be termed bisexual "erasure". Bisexuals were long considered to be curious heterosexuals or gays in denials.

In 2005 the New York Times had an article in which a scientist declared that from decades of research there was not even a hint that male bisexuals exist.

In 2014 they were prepared to venture "The Scientific Quest to Prove Bisexuality Exists" in which they admitted the possibility that suggested that more research was necessary to be sure.

Now as far as I know there was no outrage or canceling of the NY Times for this. For most bisexuals this is a matter of amusement and is likely to give us less respect for science.

For most of us, bisexuality is a not very interesting fact about us and no plausible possibility of doubt about the fact that we are, in fact, bisexual, so someone that doubts it is simply someone who is not very smart.

Now if I felt I was a woman and was in no doubt about the fact then I can't see that it would matter to me if people said I was a man, not a woman and used "he" instead of "she".

 

[arthwollipot]

But at least I would know that what it is like to smell roses pertained to the feeling you get when you are near some roses giving off odor. If you said that you felt like you were smelling roses every time you were near oranges and that you felt like you were smelling oranges every time you were near roses then I should probably think that you were simply labelling these experiences wrongly.

But, as I said before, if someone asks me if I am Category A or Category B and gives me no more information about what those categories might refer to then i would definitely be unsure about which category I fit into.

In the special case of these particular categories under discussion, I would definitely be very sure. I am male. I identify as male, I present as male, and I have male genitalia. All of those are statements I can make categorically. If you can't, then maybe you might not be male. If you also can't categorically make the statement that you are female, then you may wish to identify as nonbinary. That's kind of what binary means - you're categorically one or the other.

That fact would not say anything at all about the likelihood that I am in some spectrum between the two. I might be neither category A nor category B nor in any spectrum between the two.

How would I know?

If you don't, then I'd suggest that you're definitely in the spectrum, and not at one end like I am. But you don't find that helpful. It's likely that you never will.

But I don't even have the beginnings of a clue about what it is that I should be trying on for size.

I can't seem to make you understand what is the problem with that.

What I think you should be trying on for size is identifying as non-binary. When you fill out a form, and it has a section to tick either male or female, tick neither. Or tick "prefer not to say". Stop using gendered pronouns, and ask people not to use them when referring to you (they/them is the usual choice of nongendered pronouns but you are of course free to use whatever you like). Try looking for androgynous clothes. Ask your hairdresser to cut your hair in a nongenderspecific way. There are many ways to present as nonbinary.

If a trans man were to ask me if I accept him as a man then of course I should say "yes".

If a trans man were to ask me if I consider him a man in exactly the same sense that I consider myself a man then if I were to take your above suggestion then I would have to say "no".

Yes. You would say that. But here's something to consider: why would a trans man ask you such a weird question?

The point is that I would not want to be in that situation. I would want to understand and accept the trans man, but there is simply no way for me to do that.

You don't have to feel the same way in order to understand and accept. I understand and accept that you do not strongly feel that the gender male applies to you. I can't feel that way myself, but I do not need to in order to understand and accept that you have a different gender identity to mine.

And here's something that's important to repeat: it's okay to not be sure. There are many different ways that people present as nonbinary. Maybe none of them are for you. Only you can decide how you identify.

 

[arthwollipot]

Now if I felt I was a woman and was in no doubt about the fact then I can't see that it would matter to me if people said I was a man, not a woman and used "he" instead of "she".

Misgendering is something that some trans people don't feel strongly about, but others feel very strongly about. And if you (for example) don't feel strongly about it, that should not deny or erase the strong feelings that others have about it.

 

[Robin]

If you also can't categorically make the statement that you are female, then you may wish to identify as nonbinary. That's kind of what binary means - you're categorically one or the other.

But it appears to imply that you are somewhere in between. You don't have to be in between two categories. The categories and anything in between might be something that has no relevance to me.

If you don't, then I'd suggest that you're definitely in the spectrum, and not at one end like I am. But you don't find that helpful. It's likely that you never will.

Again that doesn't make sense. If I say there is Category A and Category B and they have nothing to do with gender, and I ask you whether you are Category A or Category B then you wouldn't be able to answer, because I haven't told you what they are, right?

So if I say that the fact that you don't have any idea what these categories I am talking about are, then you are definitely in that spectrum, then that would make no sense.

You might not be on that spectrum at all.

That is my situation. If it was likely I would be on that spectrum then it seems likely that I would have at least a tiny inkling of what this mysterious inexpressible spectrum of yours is, or what these mysterious inexpressible categories are.

But I don't, so it is far more likely that these categories or the spectrum in between them are something that doesn't apply to me in any way shape or form.

 

[Robin]

Misgendering is something that some trans people don't feel strongly about, but others feel very strongly about. And if you (for example) don't feel strongly about it, that should not deny or erase the strong feelings that others have about it.

Who is talking about denying or erasing anything?

If I don't understand why something is important to someone I can still acknowledge that it is important.

Some different coloured pieces of cloth are very important to some people for reasons that i don't understand, but I still would not burn them or soil them.

If a trans man wants to be called a man then of course I will do it, have been doing so for decades.

But, again, you miss the point. I am not really accepting him as a man if I have absolutely no idea what he means by "man". Am I?

 

[Robin]

Yes. You would say that. But here's something to consider: why would a trans man ask you such a weird question?

Why is it weird?

You are asking me to adopt what is generally regarded as a transphobic definition of "man" when I apply it to myself and use another definition which I have literally no way of understanding for others.

But you don't think it matters because you think it would be weird for people to ask if I apply the transphobic definition for myself.

 

[Robin]

You don't have to feel the same way in order to understand and accept.

But you have to understand to understand.

I understand and accept that you do not strongly feel that the gender male applies to you.

You are putting words into my mouth. What I said is that I don't have an inkling of what you mean by gender, or any idea about how to start finding out what you mean by it.

 

[Robin]

There was a party where people were playing a game called "Mornington Crescent" and I was not familiar with the game or the radio show where it originated.

I tried very hard to find out what the rules were.

That is how I feel in these kinds of threads.

 

[Manger Douse]

There was a party where people were playing a game called "Mornington Crescent" and I was not familiar with the game or the radio show where it originated.



I tried very hard to find out what the rules were.



That is how I feel in these kinds of threads.

I often wonder if that's the point to some of the posts I read here

 

[zooterkin]

Can anyone give a working definition of what 'gender non-binary' actually means, in practice?

 

[Belz...]

Sounds reasonable. How are you defining it here?

I'm really not sure. It's not necessarily easy when you get conflicting definitions from different people, and using my own homemade definition, whatever that would turn out to be, wouldn't be very useful.

 

[Belz...]

It indicates that gender identification based on sexual behavior is probably not very useful.

I'm not aware of anyone who defines gender as being based on sexual orientation.

I really have no idea what your argument is.

 

[Belz...]

All that can be said, is if you're sure you're sure, and if you're not, then nonbinary could be the gender identity that sits best with you.

Or maybe you're just not sure and it doesn't change anything about your gender.

 

[Belz...]

Misgendering is something that some trans people don't feel strongly about, but others feel very strongly about. And if you (for example) don't feel strongly about it, that should not deny or erase the strong feelings that others have about it.

Not agreeing with someone is not erasing their feelings. Otherwise I'd be erasing theists' feelings all the time.

 

[Thermal]

But I haven't even seen an explanation that explains.

When I say "I am a man" I mean only that I am biologically male.

I don't know of any other definition. If I were to wonder if I was really a man I would only be wondering if I was really biologically male.

I am and have always been open to other definitions of "man" but I have never ever seen one beyond "someone who feels that they are a man"

But how does that feel? No one has ever been able to tell me.

You're asking a qualia question, which can't be objectively answered. Like most identity things, it's how you choose to think of yourself, not how anything actually is, or literally feels like.

 

[d4m10n]

Can anyone give a working definition of what 'gender non-binary' actually means, in practice?

I think arthwollipot sort of did, actually, at least wrt presentation to the outside world.

What I think you should be trying on for size is identifying as non-binary. When you fill out a form, and it has a section to tick either male or female, tick neither. Or tick "prefer not to say". Stop using gendered pronouns, and ask people not to use them when referring to you (they/them is the usual choice of nongendered pronouns but you are of course free to use whatever you like). Try looking for androgynous clothes. Ask your hairdresser to cut your hair in a nongenderspecific way. There are many ways to present as nonbinary.

I think it may also mean you get to use any toilets or changing rooms you feel like using, since those are segregated by gender these days. That actually sounds liberating, especially at skeptic conferences where only the men's has a queue.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I'm not aware of anyone who defines gender as being based on sexual orientation.

I really have no idea what your argument is.

In my experience, who you are attracted to during adolescence very much affects how certain you are of your gender.

 

[Belz...]

In my experience, who you are attracted to during adolescence very much affects how certain you are of your gender.

Just out of curiosity, how do you define "gender"?

 

[TragicMonkey]

In my experience, who you are attracted to during adolescence very much affects how certain you are of your gender.

How on earth does that work? I'm a masculine guy attracted to masculine guys, and was so in adolescence. Does that mean I'm female gender? Or that the guys I find hot are female gender?