Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[JoeMorgue]

I have no idea what you think this means, or how it relates to me saying that your condescending mealy-mouthed "scawed widdle women" quip was a bit insulting.

To be honest, I'm not fully convinced that you know what you mean.

I think I've made my point clear enough, but this continued hijack serves no purpose.

I am uncomfortable with how easily straight cis-men are seen as inherently predatory, nothing more, nothing less

We'll just have to leave it at that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Then can you rephrase the following to make it inclusive of infertile people?

Remember, the goal here is to define "male" and "female" in a way that is unequivocal, clear, and which includes every human being on the planet.

This is silly.

Can you define "human" in a way that is unequivocal, clear, and includes every human being on the planet?

 

[d4m10n]

Can you define "human" in a way that is unequivocal, clear, and includes every human being on the planet?

Not without pissing off all the pro-lifers. [emoji16]

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[Emily's Cat]

What about a person who was 6'4" but got into an accident and lost both legs and is now 3'8"? Are they allowed to consider themselves short? Use the reserved-for-the-short-people booster seat at the restaurant? Or is that "unearned privilege" and "invading short spaces"? Does their very existence serve as an insult to the precious feelings of the "natally short"?

I genuinely can't tell what you're poking fun at with this. Are you poking fun at disabled people? People with dwarfism and similar disorders? Females?

 

[Giordano]

I don't think this is quite as tricky as all that.

Female humans are born with around one million oocytes, males are born with zero. If you were born with a clutch of ova, you're female as far as gametes are concerned.

As to castrati^WP, we can be pretty sure they never had any oocytes.

As to sterile adults, well, it depends on why.

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Oh stop. I refuse to repeat myself endlessly. Are XYs without sperm females by the definitions given upthread? Are XXs without ova males? Do you agree or disagree with having sperm or ova being the sole criterion to define sex? My argument is that it is not.

But of course saying that the “gametes” one produces at birth defines their sex for evermore is simply saying one’s sex is determined at birth and by this one criterion. BTW male and female babies do not produce functional gametes. And it ignores the actual complexity and reality of the ambiguity of sex identity (not everyone produces gametes even at birth for example,have they no sex) and the reality of how people identify by the more important term, gender.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's a thing by the way, transabled people who like perfectly normal working legs but use wheelchairs because their "body image" is that of a disabled person. I'd love to know why that's different.

I don't have words for this. I had to go look it up, and sure as poop, it's a real thing. I'm having a really hard time perceiving that as anything other than nuts.

 

[Giordano]

Given that they ultimately derive from the same organ, and since there are more than enough intersex variations of genitals, you can't maintain that kind of dichotomy.

Exactly! I suspect a lot of posters don’t understand this. They are derived from the same embryonic organ and when they differentiate one way or another it often is to somewhat different extents. Sometimes the process is significantly different from what the karyotype might suggest.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And if my uncle was my aunt... Oh, strangely appropriate here

Probably in terms of physically observable intersex, but the people who identify as gender non binary do so ultimately for biological reasons. How they think of themselves is wired into the synapses and action potentials of their brains. Possibly due in part by hormones, or by genetics we don’t yet fully understand, or by experiences. But our thoughts and views all have a basis in terms of how our brain physically functions. So if the definition of intersex relates to physical properties beyond gametes, then gender non binary probably itself is a form of intersex - intersex related to brain properties.

So... women and men have materially and meaningfully different brains by nature? Is that your hill?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Genuine question : can you give a definition of 'man' or 'woman' from a gender point of view which isn't circular (e.g. 'someone who identifies as') and carries external utility? For example, in the 'man gives birth' thread a while back, the definition of 'man' was so open ended it was utterly useless.

The contrast I've used in the past is hetero- vs homosexual. I'm hetero, so I'm sexually attracted to women. If I were homosexual I'd have the same feelings, but toward men. Apply that to the gender issue. "I identify as a woman, therefore <x>, and if I identified as a man I would <y> instead.". None of the answers I've seen are anything which would have an external impact, and were only internal feelings or the like. Which is fine, but doesn't mean the world now treats you differently.

I'd be a lot more sanguine if someone could explain to me what a male-bodied person who has the lived experience of a man actually means when they say they "feel like a woman", and how the f--- they know what the hell a woman "feels like" in the first place.

It's totally cool if an intact biological male wants to wear dresses, but that doesn't mean they're now allowed on the women's track team because they 'feel like a woman'. And it doesn't make a lesbian a bigot if she's not into going down on your ladypenis.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We could say this about anything with the same passive voice of disdain.

"Oh so you're saying only people who predominantly use their right hands for task are real right handed people!?"

YES! Words mean things. Definitions are not sinister concepts.

ISWYDT

 

[Emily's Cat]

What if this can be extended in the future so that trans-women can produce ova do to an ovary transplant?

https://www.infertile.com/woman-gives-birth-first-ovary-transplant-operation/

Obviously tricky: the hormones would need to be carefully balanced and to give birth they would also need a uterus, etc, transplant. But wouldn’t that completely resolve the issue of if their “sex” was now female even by the gamete test?

If we figure out how to transplant a beak and wings onto my cat, does she become a duck?

 

[Giordano]

So... women and men have materially and meaningfully different brains by nature? Is that your hill?

I am proposing that what we think is based on the physical set up and chemistry of our brains. And that the specific thoughts people have when thinking of themselves as one gender or the other are based on these physical and chemical processes. What other possibly is there, a consciousness based on an incorporeal “mind?”

Obviously if I believe a cis male can think of themselves as female I am not proposing that males and females are born with different brains.

 

[Giordano]

If we figure out how to transplant a beak and wings onto my cat, does she become a duck?

I was replying to the criteria of sex identity cited by the posters upthread. Sperm and ova production being prominent.

If your cat starts to tell you they believe they are a duck please get back to me.

 

[Belz...]

Given that they ultimately derive from the same organ, and since there are more than enough intersex variations of genitals, you can't maintain that kind of dichotomy.

Sure we can, just like we can maintain the dichotomy between graphite and diamond even though it's made from the same stuff.

 

[d4m10n]

I'd be a lot more sanguine if someone could explain to me what a male-bodied person who has the lived experience of a man actually means when they say they "feel like a woman", and how the f--- they know what the hell a woman "feels like" in the first place.

I've often wondered about this myself. The best answer I've heard so far is basically a list of symptoms, but then again most cis women and cis men don't have any of these.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Okay. You're a biological man that identifies as a woman. What changes? I'm still not letting this go.

I'll give you two answers... neither of which is intended to be viewed as "right".

The first is my opinion: Nothing really changes. At best, if you're a nice person and you care about how the other person feels, you change what pronoun you use about them, and you use whatever name they wish to go by, and you don't mention the 5 o'clock shadow. For anything other than basic personal interactions... use judgement on a case by case basis. But pretty much just be a decent human being.

The second is what I think that transwomen want... which may be a bit biased by my own frustration: Change the entirety of how you view them, how you think about them, and how you interact with them. Start treating them the way you treat "women". So... ? Open doors for them? Tell them to make you a sammich? Take away their shoes and leave them stranded in the kitchen? Pay them less for doing the same job? Force gynecologists to see them even though they don't have a vagina? Pretend they don't have prostates and never suggest they should get that things checked? Let them compete in sports against female-bodied people and pretend there are no obvious physical differences? Wolf whistle and cat call when they walk down the street?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm still fascinated by the possibility of mixed sex chimeras, a subject which has apparently received very little scientific attention. They would not necessarily present as intersex, but the condition might be relevant to transgenderism. One might have, for example, a genetically female brain in a genetically male body. That would look like a simple biological male.

If a transgender person discovered that they had such a condition, the information might prove useful to them. It could help them and their family come to terms with their dysphoria as having a biological basis rather than a sort of mental illness, and it would also push back against religious fundamentalist objections to transgenderism. But it's not going to make the activist base happy, because it cuts against the self-identification dogma. So it's a sort of weird possibility that people on multiple sides don't really want to look at too closely.

What exactly is a "female brain"? Let's start with that bit. Because my poor widdle woman brain just can't keep up...

 

[Emily's Cat]

No I don't.

These are not Woosters. I disagree with how the interpretation is being presented, but I do not want to in anyway dismiss the reality of how difficult it is for non-traditional people to live in a world in which their personal views of themselves and the unfair categorizations society puts on them clash to this level.

I disagree with... a lot of the nuts and bolts. I stand behind that and I make no apologies for it. But they are not Figbooters or Truthers or whatnot.

They have valid distinctions they that are struggling to get across within a framework that makes it nearly impossible. I disagree with some of the paths they are taking, but I will not demonize them.

Well said.

 

[Ziggurat]

What exactly is a "female brain"? Let's start with that bit. Because my poor widdle woman brain just can't keep up...

Sticking with the normal situation of XX vs XY chromosomes (ie, no chromosomal anomalies, no defective or misplaced genes), a chimeric person could have brain cells with XX but the rest of the body being XY. I am describing that as a female brain in a male body.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We've covered this. Because we have to keep straight cis-men quarantined.

Now you're talking! Cis-het sex slaves ftw!

Honestly, though, I don't think anyone wants to keep straight cis-men quarantined. At least nobody in this thread. Please don't mistake my bits of rant as being somehow anti-men. I'm a feminist who happens to love dudes, and who also thinks there's a lot in my society that is patently unfair to men as well.