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Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

metacristi said:
I'm afraid there is no ''institutional racism', at least nothing which to justify the widespread 'violent progressive actions today (after all even vandalism perpetrated by the Suffragettes cannot be justified if we look retroactively, in spite of a way worse off situation for women at the time). And when even merely advocating a return to the peaceful fight for social rights (all inclusive, a characteristics of liberal-progressivism before mid 1990s, without playing the card of 'racism' leading to the the excesses of cultural relativism) is labeled as a sign of 'racism' one instantly knows that the whole edifice is rotten to the core.

That's the reality, after roughly 1995 progressivism went astray. You do not read, I've already offered sufficient justifications but who to understand?
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I did ask for no more “I assert therefore I am right” and that is all you repeat? Do you have anything even approaching evidence?
 
Meadmaker said:
I've done some more googling.

I had never heard of "Uncle Ben" as a racist image before this week. I heard about Aunt Jemima all the time. I wondered how she survived to this day. I never heard of Uncle Ben or the Cream of Wheat guy.

However, I have googled it and found complaints about Uncle Ben going back several decades, so it isn't some made up thing from recent history. I stand corrected.
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That it's a real thing doesn't surprise me, what surprises me is the idea that hiding the black guy somehow makes all of the previously racial connotations go away.
 
Gilbert Syndrome said:
Many of the UK's sex-workers are vulnerable women who're trafficked from all over, Europe, Asia, etc. They're ill-treated, terrified and in most cases, abused. Not many people give a toss about them, oddly enough, much like the many thousands of homeless and destitute people here, none of whom have the benefit of being care-free enough to actually be insulted by various food mascots or statues because they're too concerned with finding a place to sleep and locating a warm meal. It was unsurprising to see so many young "woke" middle-class kids just casually walking by all of those homeless people without giving them a glance. Finding out how you can help people in your hometown isn't difficult to do, there are so many registered charities and groups that are actively trying to make their communities better for all, black, white, gay, straight, yet every year they're left crying out for volunteers, funnily enough.
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And?

It appears that unless people do what you want they can’t protest anything else.
 
Gilbert Syndrome said:
That it's a real thing doesn't surprise me, what surprises me is the idea that hiding the black guy somehow makes all of the previously racial connotations go away.
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We haven't seen what the post Uncle Ben (and other examples) branding is going to look like. It could just be that or it could be a full top down rebuild of the whole branding.

It might or might not amount to more than "just hiding the black guy."
 
JoeMorgue said:
No. Screw that racist apologetic nonsense.

Black people have been "asking" to take the statues down for years and we didn't listen. Hell my home state pretty much made "Not being racist" illegal.

They used the system and it didn't work.

Now they are just taking it into their own hands and the argument is "Oh noes well now we can't trust you... you're a MOB"

We make is so they can't use the system, then use the fact that they have to work outside the system to prove they aren't trust worthy.

Again I'm just so utterly impressed by however black people are handling it, it's always wrong.

If you didn't want any collateral statue damage, you should have listened when they asked nicely. Now they aren't asking anymore.
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Steve said:
:thumbsup: A point well made.
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To me, it just sounds like more "This is what matters, and I'm only going to talk about this! And anyone who says anything else is......" (fill in the blank with racist, or racist apologetics, or whatever is convenient at the time.)

Washington and Grant are "collateral damage". It's just a way of saying, "If it's not important to me, it doesn't matter."
 
bruto said:
I presume somewhere in the corporate history someone could find out who invented the fictitious character Ben and when and why. Ultimately, though, does it matter? Even if it should turn out on deep research that there really was an Uncle Ben and he was really good with rice and just happened to be black, it might still be worthwhile to change the brand if enough consumers consider him an inappropriate avatar for their rice, or if the company simply decides to do some insincere virtue signalling that they hope will appeal to people who might object to old Ben. If the rice is good enough the people who are sorry to see Ben go will probably buy the stuff anyway.
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It doesn't matter at all, and the company are definitely going to pander to its paying public whether they agree or disagree, it's business, after all. As for who a brand chooses to stick on its label, they could put GG Allin's arse on a bottle of brown sauce and I wouldn't bat an eyelid, I just enjoy the fact that we've all got it so easy that this is a serious enough matter to begin with.
 
Meadmaker said:
Washington and Grant are "collateral damage". It's just a way of saying, "If it's not important to me, it doesn't matter."
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It's not important to you either, until something else is important to someone else, so you're argument is self serving and hollow.
 
catsmate said:
He went hard right some time ago and spouted racist and ignorant nonsense, e.g Hitler was "left wing", immigration is evil (it destroys "British identity"), he poses with Union flags, says "England for the English" (the irony, it burns :rolleyes:) and uses fascist imagery, spouts Islamophobic bollocks (he's a big supporter of 'For Britain's' Anne Marie Waters), compares eating animal flesh is comparable to the Holocaust, refers to Chinese people as a "sub-species" et cetera.
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Yet is idolized by "woke" students all over the UK who wouldn't recognize a contradiction if it followed them on Twitter.
 
JoeMorgue said:
It's not important to you either, until something else is important to someone else, so you're argument is self serving and hollow.
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Who are you to tell me what's important to me?

Seriously, Joe, do you even listen to yourself? Do you grasp what you are saying? "I, the entity known as JoeMorgue, have the power to see into men's souls and see the truth of their desires." Give it up, Joe. You're wrong.
 
Thermal said:
I seem to recall over the last few years that confederate flags and statues were being brought down, responding in the slow way that government responds to everything. Seems like people were in fact being listened too. That doesn't justify mass vandalism.

How active were you in getting them torn down? Popping a weekly email to your representatives, were you? Harassing them at lunch?

You prob did squat, like the rest of us. Maybe talked a little on a forum. So don't look down your nose at people who prefer to have government plod along in its bogged down in paperwork way than have mobs ignoring the people to do whatever they want.
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Most people are only active when their smartphone camera is running or they're on a forum, yelling with their fingers. I've seen no major influx of younger people in this city joining any of the many active charities or community groups that provide food, job-training and social interaction with poor black and white groups from underprivileged areas. Volunteering in a homeless shelter isn't as cool as spraying "racist" over a Penny Lane sign, though.
 
Meadmaker said:
Who are you to tell me what's important to me?

Seriously, Joe, do you even listen to yourself? Do you grasp what you are saying? "I, the entity known as JoeMorgue, have the power to see into men's souls and see the truth of their desires." Give it up, Joe. You're wrong.
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*Sighs* Stop playing games, at least ones you're not even good at.

The black communities want those statues gone. This isn't about what statues you (pretend) you're super concerned about.

Stop screaming "All statues matter"
 
Steve said:
I am never impressed with this argument. It leads nowhere. The implication is that one should not agree with the actions of a particular group unless one actively participates in the same actions. Why is verbal support insufficient?
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I think people who're very active about these causes on social media and in forums could definitely benefit from spending even a small fraction of that time off the internet and actually trying to make things better for the people they're forever posting comments about, it'd be an eye-opener and a very good way to get rid of some of that anxiety they seemingly have via being permanently involved in arguments with strangers online. Some people are on this forum 24/7, posting day and night, it's hard to imagine some of them even taking a walk around the block, never mind actively participating in local charities and causes. That's just funny to me.
 
Chairwoman: Fellow City Council members, thank you for coming to this meeting. I apologize for the heat in here but I'm told that they are working on the air conditioners. Now, let's get started right away with our topic which as you know is the removal or retention of various statues in our city. Of course we are speaking of those that are associated with racism or slavery. We are to discuss and hopefully resolve the question of if a statue should be removed because that person has notable relation to racism or slavery. Let's have each of us give a general framing of the issue and then move towards more specifics so that we can make good progress towards making some actual decisions today about these statues. You all have the same list that I do here. Let's start with Dale and move clockwise as the order for now. Okay, good. Hello Dale, good to see you.

Dale: Hi, good to see you and everyone and I hope all are well and being safe. I'll start with my overall framing and then will use Ulysses S. Grant as a subject when I get to specifics. We are here because of what is happening now here and in many places of our country and even the world. We want to and need to make decisions here in this meeting. Our city is now looking for changes...

Chairwoman Leila gets a text on that other phone and reaches for her pocket to look at it. Dale sees this but continues on. Eight seconds pass.

Chairwoman Leila: Sorry for the interruption... they just pulled down Grant about 3 minutes ago. The text seems to say that there were no injuries or problems. I think we can take our lunch break early starting now, and when we start again with Dale he can still do Grant with whatever else he would like to say given our news. See ya in an hour.

Viva la cultural revolution! The decisions are being made by those who pull ropes, not strings.
 
I cannot for the life of me muster even a modicum of concern over statues being taken down, by legal means or otherwise.

Could any of the people wringing their hands about it explain why vandalism should even crack the top ten of things to be concerned about with the current state of the world?
 
Darat said:
And?

It appears that unless people do what you want they can’t protest anything else.
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Did you happen to notice the post I was replying to? The And? implies that you did not. If you read that post, then my reply, there's honestly no need for an "and?"

You're doing that thing again where you make up a weird lie about me somehow being for a lack of action because I'm discussing another issue in a thread discussing issues on a forum for discussing topics. It's a wonder some of you can breathe and blink simultaneously.
 
Gilbert Syndrome said:
Most people are only active when their smartphone camera is running or they're on a forum, yelling with their fingers. I've seen no major influx of younger people in this city joining any of the many active charities or community groups that provide food, job-training and social interaction with poor black and white groups from underprivileged areas. Volunteering in a homeless shelter isn't as cool as spraying "racist" over a Penny Lane sign, though.
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Yeah, I think theres a whole spectrum of activity between Twitter posting and looting Wal-Mart that many kind of gloss over. That's where the real work goes down.

Not as cray cray as a selfie against a cop car someone else torched though.
 
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