Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[cullennz]

I can't think of any dude, gay or straight, that I have met who has been butch, nor any woman who was camp. I guess there could be some, but I don't see the relevance of these words "butch" and "camp" to a discussion on gender. Maybe you could explain.

.

I can't see how any chick can be anything except feminine



But then I use "feminine" to refer to gender, whereas you appear to be using it in some odd sense that does not relate to gender. Maybe you could explain that too.

That would be because feminine isn't a gender

 

[Robin]

Depends how deep you look into it.

It must be fairly built in to what we perceive as feminine and masculine traits or biologically we wouldn't find it attractive.

So probably biological and a pinch of social.

Obviously it is an ancient thing.

I didn't bring up the terms and it has nothing to do with trans people so not sure what you are asking

Let's go through it again then.

I am saying that if you think it is possible for there to be an unmasculine man or boy, or an unfeminine woman or girl then you must be saying that gender is, at least partly a social construct, because "feminine" and "masculine" are terms that refer to gender.

Your response seemed to imply that you don't think that "masculine" and "feminine" are terms that relate to gender and so I am firstly asking you to confirm that you don't think these terms relate to gender and secondly asking what you do mean by them.

 

[Robin]

That would be because feminine isn't a gender

Do you mean that it doesn't refer to gender?

Or does it?

If not then what on earth do you mean by the term???

 

[cullennz]

Let's go through it again then.



I am saying that if you think it is possible for there to be an unmasculine man or boy, or an unfeminine woman or girl then you must be saying that gender is, at least partly a social construct, because "feminine" and "masculine" are terms that refer to gender.



Your response seemed to imply that you don't think that "masculine" and "feminine" are terms that relate to gender and so I am firstly asking you to confirm that you don't think these terms relate to gender and secondly asking what you do mean by them.

No.

I have been saying feminine and masculine are not related to someone's personal gender.

With regard to what they mean again it is probably a mix of what the sexes biologically find attractive. With a bit of social thrown in.

Is a peacock flashing it feathers in a display to get laid social?

 

[cullennz]

Do you mean that it doesn't refer to gender?



Or does it?



If not then what on earth do you mean by the term???

You tell me.

You brought it into a conversation about trans people when it irrelevant

 

[Robin]

No.

I have been saying feminine and masculine are not related to someone's personal gender.

With regard to what they mean again it is probably a mix of what the sexes biologically find attractive. With a bit of social thrown in.

Is a peacock flashing it feathers in a display to get laid social?

Well I am not sure what you mean by the terms.

I started by noting that if gender was just about a person's biological sex then "an effeminate boy" would be meaningless - a contradiction.

I wonder if anyone here could be specific about what traits a boy would have in order to be "effeminate". I note that I was regarded as an effeminate boy in school and no-one was ever able to explain what they meant by it.

Something to do with not liking sport or not appreciating the perfunctory textbook rock and roll of AC/DC I think, but I am not sure.

I would love to find out one day.

 

[Robin]

You tell me.

You brought it into a conversation about trans people when it irrelevant

You responded to me, not I to you.

I said "Shouldn't any way in which a male person behaves be, by definition, masculine?"

You disagreed, so you should be the one to tell me in what way a male person can behave that is not "masculine" and what you mean by the term.

As far as I am concerned "masculine' can mean nothing more than "behaving like a male person" and "feminine" "behaving like a female person".

 

[cullennz]

Well I am not sure what you mean by the terms.



I started by noting that if gender was just about a person's biological sex then "an effeminate boy" would be meaningless - a contradiction.



I wonder if anyone here could be specific about what traits a boy would have in order to be "effeminate". I note that I was regarded as an effeminate boy in school and no-one was ever able to explain what they meant by it.



Something to do with not liking sport or not appreciating the perfunctory textbook rock and roll of AC/DC I think, but I am not sure.



I would love to find out one day.

From my understanding gender has nothing to do with biological sex.

Sex - m/f (on very rare occasions who knows)

Gender - apparently to the woke. Inner feelings of what you feel you should be. Massive scale apparently. But it gets boring to talk about.

Feminine/masculine - traits people portray to the opposite sex/or in some cases same sex to get their sexy bits excited

 

[Robin]

I also don't know what the stupid sneer word "woke" means.

 

[cullennz]

I also don't know that the stupid sneer word "woke" means.

Apologies

I just get a bit bored with people trying to merge sex and gender and moving the goalposts on what gender is.

 

[Robin]

I doubt the people in high school who were insisting that I was effeminate or not masculine or that I was not a man were what anyone would describe as "woke".

 

[Robin]

Apologies

I just get a bit bored with people trying to merge sex and gender and moving the goalposts on what gender is.

I am asking what the goal posts are.

I know that I got tired of people telling me I was not a man, but apparently if I say "OK, have it your way I am not a man" people will get angry and say "Oh yes you are".

I have never had any idea where the goal posts are and most of the time I don't care because I am probably playing a different game anyway.

 

[cullennz]

I doubt the people in high school who were insisting that I was effeminate or not masculine or that I was not a man were what anyone would describe as "woke".

They wouldn't have been.

They would have been stupid idiot kids.

The woke ones would have been trying to get you to chose what gender you think you are on a massive sliding scale.

 

[Robin]

I had these discussions with a number of trans women back in the 80s. Unfortunately these conversations would probably be regarded as transphobia or hate speech.

I have always thought it stupid to be critical of anyone for behaving in a way that is not regarded as being conventional for a particular sex and I have felt that the whole idea of being trans gender reinforced the attitudes that saw me bullied at school.

I would ask "what is the difference between being a woman and being a man who feels they way you do?"

I don't know, maybe we have to go with what society is saying at the current time. I always seem to be out of step one way or the other.

 

[Robin]

They wouldn't have been.

They would have been stupid idiot kids.

Yes, but they were pretty much a reflection of stupid idiot society of the time.

The woke ones would have been trying to get you to chose what gender you think you are on a massive sliding scale.

There weren't any around at the time and place, but if they had I would have asked them to give me at least some idea of how to tell what "gender" I am.

 

[Robin]

There was a YouTube personality posted in some earlier version of this thread who attempted to ridicule the idea of getting rid of gender by suggesting that it would involve everybody plain undifferentiated clothes, hairstyles, no make-up and talk in robot voices.

I can't imagine how it is even possible to miss the point so completely.

Getting rid of gender would mean that all of us could dress, do our hair, put on slap or not, and talk and act in any way which we felt comfortable and not give a damn about what "gender" that would entail that we were embracing.

 

[cullennz]

I had these discussions with a number of trans women back in the 80s. Unfortunately these conversations would probably be regarded as transphobia or hate speech.



I have always thought it stupid to be critical of anyone for behaving in a way that is not regarded as being conventional for a particular sex and I have felt that the whole idea of being trans gender reinforced the attitudes that saw me bullied at school.



I would ask "what is the difference between being a woman and being a man who feels they way you do?"



I don't know, maybe we have to go with what society is saying at the current time. I always seem to be out of step one way or the other.

Personally don't care what people feel they are.

As long as it doesn't involve being an axe murder lol

I just think with every decision there are things you have to deal with from it.

In the case of chosing to live openly as a trans woman. You don't get to hang out in girls changing rooms or play professional female sports comps.

I chose to move back from London after 10 years. I don't have decent public transport anymore and the pay is crappier.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

That's the crucial bit of the article, IMO.

It's all just the same misgendering excused by the incorrect idea that in order to grant rights to one group you have to take them away from another. Nobody is erasing anything.

Human females of reproductive age have good reason to band together to work for sexual equality, and they deserve a banner under which to do so. Arguing that women must be denuded of such a banner strikes me as, well, a bit regressive.

Nobody is advocating for that. Or, if they are, it's not a mainstream view, and is not one that anybody has been shown to be advocating for in this thread while I've been reading it. It's absolutely, certainly not something that happened in the article that Rowling decided to have a go at.

Which I'm sure you'd be happy to accurately excerpt and factually debunk whenever you've got the time.

There's already been a long twitter thread posted going through it in detail.

The justification in question mentioned the "menstruators" problem exactly once, at which point Rowling characterized trans activists as attempting to be loving and kind. I suppose you can call that TERFing if you like, but it's hard to take seriously.

Oh come on. I used to think you were better than this.

I'm not going to go back and do the "arguing about arguing" thing, but if you're going to reply to me, please make your replies relevant to the context of the things that you're quoting, rather than changing the subject midstream in order to try to engineer a gotcha.

 

[Belz...]

If gender was entirely determined by biological sex then every biological male would, by definition, be masculine and every biological female would, by definition, be feminine.

No, that doesn't follow at all. Since when is biology so black-and-white?

 

[d4m10n]

Nobody is advocating for that. Or, if they are, it's not a mainstream view, and is not one that anybody has been shown to be advocating for in this thread while I've been reading it.

Do you think it is okay for human females of childbearing age to advocate for their unique medical needs under the banner of "women's rights" and "women's health" or would you call that misgendering and bigotry?

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