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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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A quick google search couldn't find the data. The real question though would rather be: how predictive is transwoman after accounting for previous sexual or violent convictions? Either way, without at least some data there's no way to tell.

I couldn't either.

It should be pointed out that the poster child in these examples, Karen White, was a serial sex offender and violent person before entering the jail where she assaulted other inmates. She's exactly the kind of person you would expect to commit offenses while in prison. I see no reason to ascribe her dangerous nature to her being a trans-woman.
 
Can I just point something out? If we assume for the sake of argument that it's true that trans women are disproportionately locked up for sexual offences when compared to other populations, then that doesn't necessarily mean that trans women are more likely to be sexual offenders than any other demographic. It could also mean that they are disproportionately targeted, charged, convicted, etc.

I know that's not the main thrust of the conversation, but it's worth saying anyway.
 
I think this is a good approach to the problem. The issue isn't to minimize rape of cis-women by cis-men, or cis-women by trans-women or cis-men by cis-men, or any other subset. Of course we want to minimize all of those, but the thing we want to minimize is the total amount of rape.

In transferring trans-women to women's prisons we put them in a situation where they are less at risk of rape. On the other hand, they are also more likely to perpetrate rape in that circumstance.

In that case the question is, which of those things changes more. In other words, do total rapes go up or down, on average, after a trans-woman is transferred to a woman's prison.

I would think trans women who have not been convicted of a sexual crime are by far the least likely to commit sexual crimes against women, and those who have committed sexual crimes should be evaluated and separated from other women on a case by case basis.

Building an entire facility dedicated to the few trans women who commit crimes would not only cost an unnecessary amount of money but would also expose trans women to those same predators we are protecting cis women from. The trans women aren't the problem, the predators are.
 
This study found that 59% of the trans prisoners (in male prisons) reported having been sexually assaulted, compared to 4.4% of cis men.

That suggests that if we are worried about rape (of anyone!) then keeping trans women out of male prisons is going to stop more rapes than keeping them out of women's prisons does.

It may still make sense (from a perspective only of preventing rape) to put them in separate facilities.
 
On the other hand, they are also more likely to perpetrate rape in that circumstance.

Indeed, transwomen would be the only ones in the women's facility who could even theoretically commit the crime of rape in the archaic sense of the term, i.e. nonconsensual PIV sex. (As to whether this should be considered a more serious offense than, say, forcible digital penetration, I leave as an exercise to the female legislators among us.)
 
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That suggests that if we are worried about rape (of anyone!) then keeping trans women out of male prisons is going to stop more rapes than keeping them out of women's prisons does.

It may still make sense (from a perspective only of preventing rape) to put them in separate facilities.

A 4.4% rate by a government administered facility is a problem, too. Imagine if 4.4% of cis men were sexually assaulted when going to the DMV.
 
A 4.4% rate by a government administered facility is a problem, too. Imagine if 4.4% of cis men were sexually assaulted when going to the DMV.

I agree very strongly. The treatment of prisoners is horrific in many respects and the degree to which rape seems to simply be overlooked and allowed to happen is one of them.
 
Isn't most prison sexual abuse from guards, not prisoners? It won't matter how you configure the prisoner distribution by sex/gender/genitals if the guards are left out of the equation.
 
Isn't most prison sexual abuse from guards, not prisoners? It won't matter how you configure the prisoner distribution by sex/gender/genitals if the guards are left out of the equation.

Is it? I wouldn't find that extraordinary, but I wouldn't find it extraordinary if the reverse were true.

It's a good point though worth, looking in to.
 
Well, I hope I don't have to explain on a sceptic's board why "what people I know think" doesn't trump a survey with good methodology when it comes to determining what the views held by a particular population are.

And I wish I didn't have to remind you on a skeptic's board that you actually have to listen to what other people are saying, but I know from experience I do, so let's revisit.

The whole conversation is you going on about transwomen don't cause problems. Leaving aside whether or not that is true for the moment, I am emphasizing that women consider men to be problematic. Note that the sentence does not contain the word "trans" in it. Women have problems with voyeurism, sexual harassment, and sexual assault by men. That's not exactly a controversial statement is it? You're with me so far, right?

(At this point, sometimes some stupid people want to jump in and say something stupid like...."Oh yeah? Well someiimes women harass women and...." For anyone tempted to type that, please stop. It's stupid.)

That's what I was talking about when you asked for "evidence". Evidence? You need evidence that men cause problems for women? How about asking any woman who has ever lived if that happens?

In fact, it's so obvious that I have to take the charitable interpretation that it wasn't clear that I was talking about ordinary interaction between ordinary men and women. That can get lost in the back and forth sometimes. You must not have realized that's what I meant, because no one could seriously question it. So, I've emphasized again, things like sexual harassment are a problem, and they are mostly inflicted on women by men.

In fact, those things are sufficiently problematic that we create laws, customs, and social conventions to minimize those problems. Right? We have separate bathrooms. We keep our clothes on around the opposite sex except for intimate occasions, or in very closely controlled circumstances. (i.e. whether it's strip bars or clothing optional resorts, there are people whose job it is to watch out for troublemakers, because you know they will be there.) We let people know at what point their enjoyment of a lady's features becomes creepy.

And, I was emphasizing that although rape is not a constant in women's lives, awareness of the possibility of rape is. The fact that people will harass women, try to peep, and even rape women is a very real and ever present thought for women. Again, you don't need a study for that. You just need a minimum of social awareness.

So, what I was saying is that self-ID, and other forms of trans-accommodation chip away at that system of protections and customs that have been erected for the safety and comfort of women. Yes, comfort matters. A guy seeing a girl naked is not, all by itself, a safety threat, and yet every single woman seems to want to control the circumstances in which guys see them naked. Sorry, I can't cite a journal article for that. I guess it's just anecdotal.

Trans-accommodation, when taken to the extreme, as self-ID provisions do, creates situations where there is a person who is large, like a man typically is, and strong, like a man typically is, and has a fully functioning penis that could make a normal woman pregnant, as a man typically has, and yet, we are told, that if the presence of such a person in a normally private space makes a woman uncomfortable, then the woman is a bigot for not accepting that the muscular, penis-equipped person is really a woman.
 
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I couldn't either.

It should be pointed out that the poster child in these examples, Karen White, was a serial sex offender and violent person before entering the jail where she assaulted other inmates. She's exactly the kind of person you would expect to commit offenses while in prison. I see no reason to ascribe her dangerous nature to her being a trans-woman.

It's not about "ascribing her dangerous nature" to her being a trans-woman. The trans-woman property, in the context of transfers of prisoners to the female estate, is relevant because that's the property on which the transfers get requested. I'm sure there are plenty of cis-men in prison who would sexually assault a woman as well, but they're not the ones getting transferred, they don't come into it. And of course we're only looking at a specific subgroup of trans-women, namely those imprisoned on long sentences, so this doesn't mean that trans-women in the general population are more likely to engage in sexual assaults - one can't generalize like that. But the fraction of them in the specific subgroup of "those serving long prison sentences" is sky high, for obvious reasons.
 
Indeed, transwomen would be the only ones in the women's facility who could even theoretically commit the crime of rape in the archaic sense of the term, i.e. nonconsensual PIV sex. (As to whether this should be considered a more serious offense than, say, forcible digital penetration, I leave as an exercise to the female legislators among us.)

You say archaic, it is still the legal definition that rape is penetration by the penis (though not, now, only in the vagina) in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.. It's generally viewed as more serious because it carries the risk of pregnancy and transmission of STDs (though of course individual incidents may vary).

ETA: Which means that cis women cannot commit rape in the UK. I do not know if trans men can.
 
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I understand the idea of these per capita calculations is to somehow calculate how “dangerous” trans women are to other women prisoners versus cis-women. But in thinking about it I’m not certain the “per capita” adjustment is all that important in practice. The issue is how to best protect everyone. Given there are so few trans women in prison, and therefore so few assaults committed by them, it should be easier to work out safe guards fair for all compared to the much larger problem of cis-men/cis-men assaults.

I get what you're saying, but I disagree with the impact of your logic here. One could just as easily argue that because there are so few transwomen in prison altogether, the impact of them being at risk of rape in a men's prison is negligible and not worth worrying about.

But I don't think that's something anyone in this thread supports.

I think that the core message here keeps getting glossed over: We should focus on finding a solution that reduces risk to transwomen, while also NOT increasing risk to cis-women and transmen.
 
I think this is a good approach to the problem. The issue isn't to minimize rape of cis-women by cis-men, or cis-women by trans-women or cis-men by cis-men, or any other subset. Of course we want to minimize all of those, but the thing we want to minimize is the total amount of rape.

In transferring trans-women to women's prisons we put them in a situation where they are less at risk of rape. On the other hand, they are also more likely to perpetrate rape in that circumstance.

In that case the question is, which of those things changes more. In other words, do total rapes go up or down, on average, after a trans-woman is transferred to a woman's prison.

Well hell, if we're only going to look at the aggregate, and not consider the impact to cohorts, then we should just move ALL sexual offenders to the women's prison. I mean, there are far fewer women incarcerated than men, so the total number of people raped in prison will definitely be reduced. That's the goal, right? Bring down total rapes?
 
There's a lot of stuff here which is irrelevant to anything I've said, and then a false dichotomy.

Consider the fact that not every trans woman will be able to pass as a cis woman. Consider the fact that some trans women have facial surgery in order to appear more feminine, and that not all trans women will want to do that.

Then consider the fact that it's possible for a trans woman to be perfectly content looking like a trans woman, without feeling the need for every random stranger to believe them to be a cis woman.

That's your answer.

That doesn't help me any. I am not implying that every transwoman should put in maximum effort to make strangers believe they are cis-women. In fact, I was pretty clear that I 100% understand not wanting to employ surgery in order to pass.

That's not what was said though - what was said was that some transwomen don't want to pass. And as far as I can tell, that would mean that they're perfectly content looking like, behaving like, dressing like, and being perceived as a cis-man... but want to have other people pretend that they don't notice that? I don't know. That's where I really end up confused.

If a transwoman has no desire or intention of passing as a woman at all... then where's the trans part of it?
 
The link I posted which had interviews with many people who run women's shelters said that they used self-identification, although they did also concede that they may have sheltered women who they didn't know were trans.

Basically, if you show up and say "I'm an abused woman" they will assess your case on an individual basis like they do every case, rather than asking for a cheek swap or if they can check to see whether or not you have a penis. They also have policies in place and staff training to ensure that they can give trans women care that is as effective as the care they give to other people.

I think you're assuming something broader than is likely reality.

I suspect that if a 6'2" person, wearing mens clothing, with an obviously masculine build, and with a full beard showed up and said "I'm an abused woman I want to stay here", they wouldn't just be let in to the general population with no skepticism at all. Sure, maybe the get let in to a separate area, or maybe they take the question to the other women there and get a consensus with whether they're okay with it. But I really doubt that the claim alone with no other evidence to support that claim would be an instant pass into women's shelters.

I also don't think it should be an instant pass into women's shelters.
 
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