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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Rolfe said:
Sigh. The post was actually a paraphrase of a passage in an essay on feminism by Dorothy L. Sayers. The intent is to convey the point that when someone feels secure in their own position with no feelings of inferiority, they don't run around declaring "I'm as good as you are" to the people they don't feel disadvantaged in relation to. Feminism in my view from about the age of 11 was an articulation of a feeling of being disadvantaged that I simply didn't have.

It was only at the age of 63 that I discovered what the trans agenda was all about and realised that this was no longer the case and that I'd quite possibly been living in a fool's paradise all along.

Another interesting exchange I had recently. I remarked that I couldn't really get my head round it but it seemed as if the trans advocacy brigade really believe that transwomen are literally women. No they don't, was the reply. Look at the way they treat actual women. The scorn, the dismissiveness, the threats, the doxxing and so on. If they actually thought transwomen were literally women they'd be treating them like that too. That they treat them as the group that must have all its demands granted proves they know perfectly well that they're men.

ETA: I just saw this on Twitter.




Being a woman has been redefined as someone who performs a particular set of sexist stereotypes, and is progressing to being defined as "anyone who says they are, whether they bother with the sexist stereotypes or not". The people who benefit from this are men, and it should come as no surprise to see men so enthusiastically supporting it.
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A perfect encapsulation of the TERF mindset, thanks for posting this.

Treating trans people with dignity is sees by TERFs as devaluing "real" women.

When you dig into it, all these panicked storeis about bathrooms or prisons or women's shelters are just pretexts for clear animus. That trans women must not be allowed to be treated as women, because doing so would sully the platonic ideal of womanhood.
 
Transwomen should not be allowed to usurp women's specific protections and provisions because they are men. You know that and I know that. You demonstrate it constantly by your failure to treat transwomen in the dismissive and derogatory way you treat women.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
What's your source for this data?
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I found 1% cited on several different websites, but I couldn't find the original source for this, so I checked against the MoJ figures for 2016.

'There were 70 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who have had a case conference (as defined by PSI 07/2011). Of these, 52 reported their gender3 as male, 14 reported their gender as female and 4 did not state their gender.'

'Based on this exercise, there were 0.8 transgender prisoners reported per 1,000 prisoners in custody.'

That would actually be much less than 1%, although relatively higher for prisoners born male but identifying as female. However, I also saw reference to claims that these official figures might be underestimates, so went with the higher figure.
 
The funny thing is that that tweet actually presents an argument for doing away with the current system and instead implementing self-identification, since it identifies the major problem of the current system being having to persuade a panel of others that you act sufficiently female.
 
Rolfe said:
Transwomen should not be allowed to usurp women's specific protections and provisions because they are men. You know that and I know that. You demonstrate it constantly by your failure to treat transwomen in the dismissive and derogatory way you treat women.
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I assure you, if cis-women were being thrown into male prisons to become targets of near-certain rape, I'd be equally unhappy.

The number of trans-women raped in men's prisons completely dwarfs the number of rapes committed by trans women in women's prisons. TERFs fight to ensure that transwomen remain in men's jails. So long as "real" women are protected, they don't care what happens to them.
 
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Elaedith said:
I found 1% cited on several different websites, but I couldn't find the original source for this, so I checked against the MoJ figures for 2016.

'There were 70 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who have had a case conference (as defined by PSI 07/2011). Of these, 52 reported their gender3 as male, 14 reported their gender as female and 4 did not state their gender.'

'Based on this exercise, there were 0.8 transgender prisoners reported per 1,000 prisoners in custody.'

That would actually be much less than 1%, although relatively higher for prisoners born male but identifying as female. However, I also saw reference to claims that these official figures might be underestimates, so went with the higher figure.
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The MoJ figures are unreliable, as outlined above.
 
This has all been well researched with links and evidence and statistics. However the source will be dismissed.

Main page on women's prisons and the trans issue
How many transgender prisoners are there and where are they located?
Half of all transgender prisoners are sex offenders or dangerous category A inmates
The rising number of trans-identifying male offenders in women's prisons

The evidence is all there. However because it has been collated and tabluated by women it is routinely dismissed as not worth paying any attention to.
 
Rolfe said:
This has all been well researched with links and evidence and statistics. However the source will be dismissed.

Main page on women's prisons and the trans issue
How many transgender prisoners are there and where are they located?
Half of all transgender prisoners are sex offenders or dangerous category A inmates
The rising number of trans-identifying male offenders in women's prisons

The evidence is all there. However because it has been collated and tabluated by women it is routinely dismissed as not worth paying any attention to.
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Inconvenient evidence Rolfe. It will be dismissed by the usual subjects.
 
I'm not dismissing anything because it's inconvenient. I'm dismissing that evidence because it's already been rebutted in this thread. If anything needs to be addressed, it's the rebuttals.
 
Special pleading doesn't need rebuttal.

Once or twice independent media organisations have looked into this and invariably found that the Fair Play For Women statistics are correct. On one occasion Channel 4 published a "Fact Check" which was clearly lifted directly from a FPFW page, without attribution. Which made it a useful link, until the usual suspects realised the source and then they just accused C4 of repeating FPFW's arguments and dismissing them on that ground.

There's also this.

Government figure's back Fair Play's report on transgender offenders

But still, women's work. Ignore it.
 
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If the US authorities can't keep men safe from rape in men's prisons, all men, they need to do something about that. That something, however, should not involve transferring men to women's prisons. Any men.

The people who assault and rape men who present as feminine are overwhelmingly other men. Men need to clean up their own act and stop treating women's spaces as a convenient get-out to avoid responsibility for keeping men safe in men's spaces.
 
What should be done with trans men? Which prison should they go to?
 
A few things, for clairty - there's no point posting evidence that has been rebutted without actually addressing the rebuttals; I'm not sure that dismissing anybody who questions the anti-trans narrative as being a misogynist who is a man is any better or more justifiable than dismissing anybody with opposing views as a TERF; and this will be my last posts even obliquely speaking like this because I will no more engage with someone who misgenders people than I will have a conversation about race with someone who insists on using racial slurs or a conversation about sexism/feminism with someone who insists on using words like "femoids". If you go out of your way to display your bigotry, then that's a fairly good indicator that nothing positive can come from engagement, and I might as well save everybody's time and effort.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
A few things, for clairty - there's no point posting evidence that has been rebutted without actually addressing the rebuttals; I'm not sure that dismissing anybody who questions the anti-trans narrative as being a misogynist who is a man is any better or more justifiable than dismissing anybody with opposing views as a TERF; and this will be my last posts even obliquely speaking like this because I will no more engage with someone who misgenders people than I will have a conversation about race with someone who insists on using racial slurs or a conversation about sexism/feminism with someone who insists on using words like "femoids". If you go out of your way to display your bigotry, then that's a fairly good indicator that nothing positive can come from engagement, and I might as well save everybody's time and effort.
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That’s funny coming from someone who uses TERF to demean people who disagree with him.
 
zooterkin said:
Which is pretty much true for most people who use the term.
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Sure, but it's largely an accurate description of an ideology. It's not a personal attack, it's a description of a viewpoint.

Calling someone a white supremacist isn't an insult if they espouse ideology that the white race is superior. Calling someone a creationist is not an insult if they believe in biblical creation.

Calling someone a TERF is not an insult if they espouse trans exclusion.

Any animus attached to the term is a sincere response to the ideology presented.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Sure, but it's largely an accurate description of an ideology. It's not a personal attack, it's a description of a viewpoint.

Calling someone a white supremacist isn't an insult if they espouse ideology that the white race is superior. Calling someone a creationist is not an insult if they believe in biblical creation.

Calling someone a TERF is not an insult if they espouse trans exclusion.

Any animus attached to the term is a sincere response to the ideology presented.
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Perhaps it's the act of daring to criticize, rather than the accuracy of the criticism, that offends.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Sure, but it's largely an accurate description of an ideology. It's not a personal attack, it's a description of a viewpoint.

Calling someone a white supremacist isn't an insult if they espouse ideology that the white race is superior. Calling someone a creationist is not an insult if they believe in biblical creation.

Calling someone a TERF is not an insult if they espouse trans exclusion.

Any animus attached to the term is a sincere response to the ideology presented.
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You know as well as I do that these "TERFS" do not exclude trans-men and hence are not "trans exclusionary" - they exclude males, so the accurate term would be "MERF" (male exclusionary radical feminist) but that would make the blatant misogyny too obvious, so "TERF" is used instead to hide behind and pretend that misogynistic abuse thrown at women is somehow "woke" or "progressive."
 
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