PartSkeptic’s Thread for Predictions and Other Matters of Interest

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True or false (or a qualified simple answer):

NIR that is within the ICNIRP safety guidelines cannot cause cancer.

JayUtah is avoiding this question. Are there any of you who think it is true? I will take silence as a "NO".
 
Anecdotes. Why are these not seen as precursors to a deeper truth? Why such a negative attitude to them? I see that attitude as denial.
As has been explained to you numerous times, anecdotes are sufficient grounds to form, and expend the necessary effort to test, an hypothesis. They are not sufficient grounds to assume that hypothesis is correct.

There have certainly been many occasions when anecdotal evidence, after careful investigation using the scientific method, has indeed eventually led to the revelation of a truth. There have also been many occasions when that investigation has revealed that the pattern perceived in the anecdotes was not really there, but was in fact an artefact of our well known and well understood cognitive biases. Astrology, dowsing, homeopathy … remember?

It's those who continue to insist that the pattern is there, even after many careful studies have shown it not to be, who are in denial. Dismissing dozens of such studies simply because the teams who collected them into metastudies had a common member is an extreme form of denial.

True or false (or a qualified simple answer):

NIR that is within the ICNIRP safety guidelines cannot cause cancer.

JayUtah is avoiding this question. Are there any of you who think it is true? I will take silence as a "NO".
Is it now your contention that your symptoms (and those of other people who believe themselves to be suffering from EMS) are symptoms of cancer? Because if not, this post and any replies to it are off topic.
 
True or false (or a qualified simple answer):

NIR that is within the ICNIRP safety guidelines cannot cause cancer.

JayUtah is avoiding this question. Are there any of you who think it is true? I will take silence as a "NO".

It's an irrelevant question unless you are suddenly going to claim that on top of everything else, YOU have cancer.

Otherwise, there is NO actual evidence that it does. Perhaps you have mistaken cheap tabloid rags for scientific research.
 
Putting it that plainly makes the attempt to reverse the burden of proof far too obvious.
What PartSkeptic still doesn't seem to understand, despite his enormous intelligence, is that the statement he is trying to cram into our mouths (as Jay so rightly put it) is not one that a rational person with the slightest understanding of the scientific method would ever make.

If I was asked, politely, to state my position on this issue I would say something like: "Given (a) the lack of objective evidence of a link between low level non-ionising radiation and any actual illness and (b) the lack of any known plausible mechanism that would lead us to expect such a link, my working assumption is that there is no such link". If it was scientifically shown that either of those givens were questionable I would reconsider my position, but in the meantime I will not go out of my way to avoid living in or entering areas of low level non-ionising radiation in the way that I actively avoid, for example, smoking, drinking excessively, holding a mobile phone to my ear for long periods and letting my BMI rise above 25.
 
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It's also interesting to see how anyone disagreeing with you is considered to be uneducated.

As I've let known before, I have a doctorate in biochemistry, with a specialization in genetics. I have worked with many many mutagens and know how happy we would have been if something as containable, cheap and directable like the radiation used in WiFi or 5G would be able to cause damage to DNA or cellular structures in a way that does not permanently kill the cell.

Yet no one uses it. Because with that radiation you can either heat a cell till it's proteins denature and it dies, or nothing happens that would not happen by any other heat source.

And you have the unmitigated gall to suggest that I, everyone I've ever worked with, all those who still work in that field and all those whose work this is based on are either too ignorant about DNA or willfully lying in the employ of companies that did not even exist nor were relevant at the time I started my education.

You're like the flat earther claiming NASA has suppressed the knowledge of a flat world for the past 2000+ years.
Hint: the radiations you are so worried about have been tested against living things LONG before wireless networks were even a pipe dream and thus there would have been zero interest in suppressing your pet belief and a massive reason to use it in the lab.
Perhaps you could use your supreme intellect in explaining how the telecom companies achieved time travel?
 
I consider myself honest and not self-delusional. If the results show that I cannot tell when the modem is on or off then I need to know why.
Will you consider the most likely explanation: that your hypothesis that your symptoms are caused by the WiFi is incorrect? If the answer is no then bruto is right, you're not approaching the experiment honestly. In which case there really isn't any point in your doing it.
 
The farce is your own narrative...

I don't have a "narrative," despite your consistent efforts to write one for me. I gave you the reasons for disputing your claim that certain kinds of radiation were equivalent to certain other kinds. You ignored it. You keep trying to force me to defend the people you've designated as your foe, using arguments you think they would make. That's a ridiculous way to argue.

Most people are not bothered to educate themselves and this includes most posters here.

Did calling everyone else stupid work for you in court?'

And the industry is a skilled and intelligent manipulator of propaganda.

Irrelevant. I disputed your claim on grounds that have nothing to do with any industry.

I never said I am God's prophet. This is your narrative. I said I believe I had a single message from God.

Yeah, that's the common definition of a prophet.

So far I have not seen much to commend you when it comes to respect for others and your own opinion of yourself.

This is the part where you fix the problems in your logical and scientific argument by switching over to the emotional "Oh, woe is me!" argument.

I could go through this narrative point by point (supported by the opinion of friends and family) and detail why it does not apply.

...you say, at the end of a long blatantly narcissistic rant.
 
I am very self-confident - and for good reason. I have achieved much because I go after what works, and also work with people. I was shy and worried about doing the wrong thing when I was younger. I always adjusted the way I did things so as to get along better with people and to get things done. I am self-critical, and will change where change is needed. Not because I am told to.


I do not put up with being attacked. I respond, although I do my best not to be nasty. My comments may be uncomplimentary but to me they are the blunt truth.

Anecdotes. Why are these not seen as precursors to a deeper truth? Why such a negative attitude to them? I see that attitude as denial.

I rose to the top of my field but the difference between you and me is that I dont brag about it nor do I scorn others if they are less knowledgeable or accuse others who disagree with being irrational. I also concede that others may know far more than myself and learn from it. I went from being an industrial machinist for my own company to a software engineer ending up in the government before retiring. Big deal anyone could replace me or you no matter what.
Being attacked is not what people are doing here, but since you totally refuse to see anyone else's viewpoint or concede anything, you take disagreement, suggestions and some mocking as an attack.
I would suggest you try to clean it up here and stop building monstrous strawmen, shifting the burden of truth and avoiding the simplest of questions and suggestions.
I do have to thank you though for being the latest study subject for my grandson. I'm teaching a 10 year old critical thinking and your writings are gold for that and not in a good way so please keep at it.
 
I am very self-confident - and for good reason. I have achieved much because I go after what works, and also work with people.

The facts here don't really bear this out. At other times you may have opted for "what works," but here you're going after a predetermined option regardless of whether it has been shown to work. You are resisting doing experiments that would test whether you're relying upon something that is well founded -- something that would otherwise be second nature to pragmatists.

And no, you are not demonstrating a good working relationship with people. You are dismissing people's legitimate knowledge and expertise in favor of your own, which is ostensibly just a regurgitation of advocacy literature you may have read. It's not the product of a carefully adjudicated course of instruction or pertinent occupational experience. You're doing that even to people who are legitimately trying to help you. That is not self-confidence, it's overconfidence. You haven't demonstrated a rational basis here for the degree of assertiveness you're applying.

Most of your critics are fed up with the "I'm so much smarter than everyone" argument, because it's a poor way to persuade people even when the premise is true. So you gain nothing by trying to justify an argument that boils down to repeated bluster and browbeating.

I am self-critical, and will change where change is needed. Not because I am told to.

This, coupled with how you have treated anyone who disputes you, indicates you will never change. You reserve the right to determine when change is necessary. But you've precluded practically every external indicator. You've claimed that your own knowledge and education are superior to everyone else's, or most everyone else's, in this thread. You maintain this even when the evidence shows it patently not to be the case. So this claim to self-criticism is largely empty. You seem to have put it out there to show you have a reasonable rule that operates when the conditions for it are satisfied. Then you create an elaborate delusion to ensure they never are.

It's ironic that you have claimed to be resistant to outside influence, but that you're clearly relying on outside advocates to make your argument. Yes, there is a political component to the debate over telecommunications. You seem to have thrown your lot in with one side of that political debate, and are trusting them to give you a good picture of the science that can hold up in a debate where legitimate expertise might arise. Your critics have shown how easy it is you get you off that script -- whereupon you flounder -- and also shown how desperate you are to stay within that script. You cannot claim to be critical of all outside influences when the evidence shows how easily it is for people you agree with to lead you around by the nose, and how needful it is for you to follow.

I do not put up with being attacked.

You seem to define "being attacked" as being disagreed with. This is not the hallmark of good people skills. As I said, you combine arguments that rely on fact and sound reasoning with arguments that involve emotional manipulation, such as playing the victim and shaming your critics when they don't fall for rhetorical stunts.

You've posted here for several years. You know what this forum is about. You know very well the personalities and habits of the regular posters here. You know very well how your unconventional ideas will be received here. You're not a babe in the woods. Whether you want to call it "being attacked" is irrelevant. You not only put up with it here at ISF, at this point you're deliberately seeking it out. You post your claims here knowing full well what kind of response you will get. It appears to some that you're actually basking in negative attention.

The "poor, poor me!" argument falls so very flat when you consciously seek out the kind of attention that enables it. So you can stop playing that up for rhetorical effect. Nobody is falling for it.

...to me they are the blunt truth.

If you agree you're being blunt, maybe it's not wise to try to blame the acrimony in your debates on everyone else.

Anecdotes. Why are these not seen as precursors to a deeper truth?

By nature, anecdotes lack the depth to see which of possibly several deeper truths is operating. Science doesn't stop when the precourse has been run. That's where it starts. As long as anecdotes are relegated to their proper scientific role as suggesting hypotheses to test later with real evidence, nobody disagrees.

Why such a negative attitude to them? I see that attitude as denial.

Science rightly does not.

The negative attitude is not to anecdotes per se, but to the common practice among fringe claimants of demanding that an anecdote here or there be more charitably received because it's all the evidence they can bring to the deduction and differentiation stages of scientific inquiry. It's a disguised ploy to lower the standard of proof from what the claimant knows would ordinarily be required, to that which the claimant is prepared to meet. Pleading and browbeating to have the standard lowered for their pet claim is not science. That's what's being viewed negatively.

As you have been plainly instructed, science uses anecdotal evidence to inform what hypothesis will be most productively tested. Since anecdotes lack control, they cannot be the evidence that establishes or falsifies any hypothesis as indicating the general operative principles. You cannot use anecdotes to establish what is generally true because the nature of an anecdote itself precludes it being a statement of general truth. It is a statement of an isolated outcome that denies the experimenter any chance of inspecting its causes and effects in a systematic way.

Demanding that your critics lower the scientific standard of proof is a losing strategy. It is not denialism from your critics if you're the one petitioning to change the status quo.
 
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Yesterday I thought I would try the first WiFi test at about 6pm. The two pain tablets would have worn off by then. At 12 pm, I did my errands which took time due to lines in stores. I did not wear a head shield.

At 4pm I started getting a headache. But this was not the usual tower headache. It was focused around the bridge of my nose and eyes. I lay down with some hot-water bottles but the pain was still with me when I went to sleep. At midnight the pain was still there. And when I got up at 7am.

My chest is a bit tight and I feel weak. I reckon I have a viral infection - the same one I had 3 times about 6 weeks ago. I forgot to take my antifungals but any return of the infection is usually slow. But if it attacks the brain and the lining then it is serious. I took two tablets this morning.

So how can I do a WiFi test under these conditions?

My wife is worried and saying that she should be the one running all the errands. That is not fair because she does so much else. I ask myself why is that happening to me? Possibly the same answer as for God telling me to give people a message - either part of the plan, or just random bad luck.

While I have had fantastic highs in life, I have also had to endure horrible lows. I took it as part of life. I learned a lot. Do you want to truly know what suffering and pain is? The text books and other people's stories do not truly inform one - you have to go through it.
 
True or false:

NIR that is within the ICNIRP safety guidelines cannot cause cancer.

JayUtah is still avoiding this question. And so is everyone else.

Focus on the person and not the issues is what people do when they are wrong.

The answer is that the statement is false. And has been conclusively and scientifically proven to be so.

See the NTP rat study and the Ramazzini study. After these studies the WHO declared cell phone emfs as "a possible human carcinogen".

Now we are no longer talking about heat being the only mechanism. The mechanism had been well documented. So now there is a mechanism, and a proof. The other "harms" that are only proven by long-term (20-30 years of epidemiological studies) are then not without concern.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5504984/
In May 2011 the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) evaluated cancer risks from radiofrequency (RF) radiation. Human epidemiological studies gave evidence of increased risk for glioma and acoustic neuroma. RF radiation was classified as Group 2B, a possible human carcinogen. Further epidemiological, animal and mechanistic studies have strengthened the association.

...Several laboratory studies have indicated mechanisms of action for RF radiation carcinogenesis such as on DNA repair, oxidative stress, down regulation of mRNA and DNA damage with single strand breaks. A report was released from The National Toxicology Program (NTP) under the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in USA on the largest ever animal study on cell phone RF radiation and cancer. An increased incidence of glioma in the brain and malignant schwannoma in the heart was found in rats. Acoustic neuroma or vestibular schwannoma is a similar type of tumour as the one found in the heart, although benign. Thus, this animal study supported human epidemiological findings on RF radiation and brain tumour risk.



This article also shows how the industry is trying to control the narrative.

...Being a member of ICNIRP is a conflict of interest in the scientific evaluation of health hazards from RF radiation through ties to military and industry. This is particularly true since the ICNIRP guidelines are of huge importance to the influential telecommunications, military and power industries.

And they give supporting links

...There are now many thousands of high quality scientific papers indicating possible non-thermal RF risks to health and those experts most competent by virtue of their research contributions are absent from this process… Both human and animal results are now available to incorporate in the RF EHC risk assessment.

Ramazzini study:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0013935118300367

NTP study:
https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/topics/cellphones/index.html
The NTP studies found that high exposure to RFR (900 MHz) used by cell phones was associated with:
Clear evidence of tumors in the hearts of male rats. The tumors were malignant schwannomas.
Some evidence of tumors in the brains of male rats. The tumors were malignant gliomas.
Some evidence of tumors in the adrenal glands of male rats. The tumors were benign, malignant, or complex combined pheochromocytoma.

It was unclear if tumors observed in the studies were associated with exposure to RFR in female rats (900 MHz) and male and female mice (1900MHz).

The results are based on NTP’s four categories of evidence that a substance may cause cancer: clear evidence (highest), some evidence, equivocal evidence, no evidence (lowest).
 
From the press release on the NTP study:

“The exposures used in the studies cannot be compared directly to the exposure that humans experience when using a cell phone,” said John Bucher, Ph.D., NTP senior scientist. “In our studies, rats and mice received radio frequency radiation across their whole bodies. By contrast, people are mostly exposed in specific local tissues close to where they hold the phone. In addition, the exposure levels and durations in our studies were greater than what people experience.”

The lowest exposure level used in the studies was equal to the maximum local tissue exposure currently allowed for cell phone users. This power level rarely occurs with typical cell phone use. The highest exposure level in the studies was four times higher than the maximum power level permitted.

[…]
These studies did not investigate the types of RFR used for Wi-Fi or 5G networks.

Studies like this are the reason I avoid holding a mobile phone to my ear for long periods, despite them being seriously questioned (ISTR we discussed this one at length on PartSkeptic's previous threads). They are completely irrelevant to any of the claims he is currently making.

The Ramazinni study exposed rats to gamma rays and then to EMF. They found no increase in cancer when the rats were exposed to EMF alone.

Are these sort of studies a cause for concern? Well, yes. More research is justified. But if they're the best PS can find, the claims he is making in this thread remain unsupported.

@PartSkeptic For goodness' sake go back to your doctor. Your wild speculations are clearly getting you nowhere, you need professional, expert help.
 
Yesterday I thought I would try the first WiFi test at about 6pm. The two pain tablets would have worn off by then. At 12 pm, I did my errands which took time due to lines in stores. I did not wear a head shield.

At 4pm I started getting a headache. But this was not the usual tower headache. It was focused around the bridge of my nose and eyes. I lay down with some hot-water bottles but the pain was still with me when I went to sleep. At midnight the pain was still there. And when I got up at 7am.

My chest is a bit tight and I feel weak. I reckon I have a viral infection - the same one I had 3 times about 6 weeks ago. I forgot to take my antifungals but any return of the infection is usually slow. But if it attacks the brain and the lining then it is serious. I took two tablets this morning.

So how can I do a WiFi test under these conditions?

My wife is worried and saying that she should be the one running all the errands. That is not fair because she does so much else. I ask myself why is that happening to me? Possibly the same answer as for God telling me to give people a message - either part of the plan, or just random bad luck.

While I have had fantastic highs in life, I have also had to endure horrible lows. I took it as part of life. I learned a lot. Do you want to truly know what suffering and pain is? The text books and other people's stories do not truly inform one - you have to go through it.

Nice anecdotes. Also: god is a real weirdo for choosing to spread his word through a habitual liar on a random internet forum.
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5504984/
In May 2011 the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) evaluated cancer risks from radiofrequency (RF) radiation. Human epidemiological studies gave evidence of increased risk for glioma and acoustic neuroma. RF radiation was classified as Group 2B, a possible human carcinogen. Further epidemiological, animal and mechanistic studies have strengthened the association.

...Several laboratory studies have indicated mechanisms of action for RF radiation carcinogenesis such as on DNA repair, oxidative stress, down regulation of mRNA and DNA damage with single strand breaks. A report was released from The National Toxicology Program (NTP) under the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in USA on the largest ever animal study on cell phone RF radiation and cancer. An increased incidence of glioma in the brain and malignant schwannoma in the heart was found in rats. Acoustic neuroma or vestibular schwannoma is a similar type of tumour as the one found in the heart, although benign. Thus, this animal study supported human epidemiological findings on RF radiation and brain tumour risk.



This article also shows how the industry is trying to control the narrative.

...Being a member of ICNIRP is a conflict of interest in the scientific evaluation of health hazards from RF radiation through ties to military and industry. This is particularly true since the ICNIRP guidelines are of huge importance to the influential telecommunications, military and power industries.

And they give supporting links

...There are now many thousands of high quality scientific papers indicating possible non-thermal RF risks to health and those experts most competent by virtue of their research contributions are absent from this process… Both human and animal results are now available to incorporate in the RF EHC risk assessment.

The report cited in the link has received heavy criticism. Self-published, without peer review and, by all accounts, seriously flawed and biased.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioinitiative_Report
 
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