• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

Status
Not open for further replies.
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
...
An ex-girlfriend of mine started menstruating when she was 9. Did that make her a woman? Are you making the argument that the schoolgirls you referred to are women?
...
Click to expand...
Let's hope not. We should all know that only men in dress and adult females are women.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
People are trying really hard to get upset and thereby back Rowling over this, aren't they?
Click to expand...

I think it was a group of people from the Twitterverse who are trying really hard to get upset. She just made a tweet. A comment on the absurdity of saying "people who menstruate" instead of "women".


That triggered the daily does of wailing and moaning and people calling J.K. Rowling was a bigot or a TERF or whatever it is that they say about her.


I suppose as long as I'm here, I'll back Rowling over this, but really, there isn't much to back. It's worth a forum post, but that's about it.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Also, FWIW, science indicates that sex isn't binary, and that there are biological differences between transgender and cisgender people

If, you know, anybody is concerned with having their opinions informed by the facts rather than their prejudices.
Click to expand...

So does there exist a scientifically objective test like a blood test which can differentiate XY transwomen from XY males and/or XX transmen from XX females? I'm genuinely curious.

ETA: To clarify, I'm not referring to the effects of hormone treatments.
 
Last edited:
Meadmaker said:
I think it was a group of people from the Twitterverse who are trying really hard to get upset. She just made a tweet. A comment on the absurdity of saying "people who menstruate" instead of "women".


That triggered the daily does of wailing and moaning and people calling J.K. Rowling was a bigot or a TERF or whatever it is that they say about her.


I suppose as long as I'm here, I'll back Rowling over this, but really, there isn't much to back. It's worth a forum post, but that's about it.
Click to expand...

Some people take exception to Rowling's body of work on this matter because they suspect it falls into line with the worst elements of TERF discourse, where treating trans people with human dignity is seen as an attack on women and feminism.

Rowling's whole twitter personna is obnoxious in general, including on issues unrelated to her being a TERF, so it's a bit of a wash anyway. She seems generally unpleasant.

People of a certain age care what she says because they took the Harry Potter books a bit too seriously.
 
Last edited:
SuburbanTurkey said:
Some people take exception to Rowling's body of work on this matter because they suspect it falls into line with the worst elements of TERF discourse, where treating trans people with human dignity is seen as an attack on women and feminism.
Click to expand...

Sure, but some others are concerned with some of the extreme hyperbole that's used by both sides on this topic. Remember when luchog considered any disagreement on the topic to dehumanise trans people? That can't be reasonable.
 
Belz... said:
Sure, but some others are concerned with some of the extreme hyperbole that's used by both sides on this topic. Remember when luchog considered any disagreement on the topic to dehumanise trans people? That can't be reasonable.
Click to expand...

It's hard to be reasonable when asked to defend your own human dignity. People tend to get a little heated about it.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
It's hard to be reasonable when asked to defend your own human dignity.
Click to expand...

But no one is asking anyone to do that. This is a claim of SOME posters here but they have never made an argument supporting that claim.

And you've avoided my point: is it dehumanising to disagree on any aspect of the topic of transgenderism, regardless of what that aspect is?
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Also, FWIW, science indicates that sex isn't binary, and that there are biological differences between transgender and cisgender people

If, you know, anybody is concerned with having their opinions informed by the facts rather than their prejudices.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that there are essentially two paths of sex expression, and it's a binary setting which path your body goes down. However, the degree to which your body goes down the XY or XX path is variable from person to person.
 
Belz... said:
But no one is asking anyone to do that. This is a claim of SOME posters here but they have never made an argument supporting that claim.

And you've avoided my point: is it dehumanising to disagree on any aspect of the topic of transgenderism, regardless of what that aspect is?
Click to expand...

No, but my point that you shouldn't be shocked that what is an academic discussion for you may be intensely personal for another.

People that have been targets of intense bigotry for decades may not be the most receptive to a "facts and logic" approach to their self-identity.
 
Meadmaker said:
I think it was a group of people from the Twitterverse who are trying really hard to get upset. She just made a tweet. A comment on the absurdity of saying "people who menstruate" instead of "women".
Click to expand...

She said something that was wrong and stupid and, with her history of transphobia, isn't entitled to the benefit of the doubt any more.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
No, but my point that you shouldn't be shocked that what is an academic discussion for you may be intensely personal for another.

People that have been targets of intense bigotry for decades may not be the most receptive to a "facts and logic" approach to their self-identity.
Click to expand...

Granted, but the whole point of this forum is to discuss varous topics, some of them difficult or complex. If a topic makes you too mad to have that discussion, don't participate.

On the other hand, can YOU understand why other posters may have grown frustrated by the aforementioned hyperbole and the various means used to shut down discussion on this topic entirely?
 
Ron Obvious said:
So does there exist a scientifically objective test like a blood test which can differentiate XY transwomen from XY males and/or XX transmen from XX females? I'm genuinely curious.

ETA: To clarify, I'm not referring to the effects of hormone treatments.
Click to expand...

As the article says, both sex and gender are a lot more complicated than is generally believed, and are both a spectrum.
 
Ziggurat said:
It is impermissible for transgenderism to be biologically based, because that means basing everything on self-identification is wrong.
Click to expand...

I honestly have no idea what this drivel is supposed to mean but, judging by your past body of work, I'm assuming it's both ignorant and bigoted.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
She said something that was wrong and stupid and, with her history of transphobia, isn't entitled to the benefit of the doubt any more.
Click to expand...

Yeah....ummm…..if enough people repeat that, it will be true.

I mean, people repeated the other side of the "people who menstruate" debate for millenia, and it is so hard to shake that belief from people.
 
Belz... said:
Granted, but the whole point of this forum is to discuss varous topics, some of them difficult or complex. If a topic makes you too mad to have that discussion, don't participate.

On the other hand, can YOU understand why other posters may have grown frustrated by the aforementioned hyperbole and the various means used to shut down discussion on this topic entirely?
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar enough with luchog's positions to say.
 
Today, even for inter-sex babies identified they check the fundamental biological sex wiring, i.e the binary format of reproductive coding. They check if the human being is Wolffian or Mullerian coded, and if need be adjust surgical procedures along those lines. So, whatever biological or social eccentricities that we might experience... we're either Wolffian or Mullerian coded. That's pretty binary, regardless of the subsequent miniscule variations (which nevertheless might prove to be psychologically significant in some rare cases).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom