Split Thread Tearing Down Statues Associated With Racial Injustice

Meanwhile in Wales.....

It's only a plaque, not a statue but nevertheless:

In the Welsh town of Brecon, upon an old wall, along Captains Walk (a name based on a fiction), is a slate plaque commemorating the life of a slave trader who resided in the town. The plaque was commissioned by Brecon Town Councillors in 2009, erected in October 2010 (during Black History Month), and makes no reference to the fact that Captain Phillips was a 17th century slaver.

https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/update-brecon-plaque-commemorates-slave-trader/
 
My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum. Colston was just an extreme some parts bad, some parts good, version of us all, he was an evil slaver, who also did good by donating his money. His place in history has to be recognised.

I would then put up a new statue showing how much of Bristol's wealth came from slavery.

I would then repeat that process throughout the UK.
 
My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum. Colston was just an extreme some parts bad, some parts good, version of us all, he was an evil slaver, who also did good by donating his money. His place in history has to be recognised.

I would then put up a new statue showing how much of Bristol's wealth came from slavery.

I would then repeat that process throughout the UK.

Well, yes and no.

Colston constituted his charities to deny their benefits to those who did not share his religious and political views.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Colston

Maybe he wasn't quite as open-handed as his supporters would suggest.

Perhaps he also wasn't quite as generous as his reputation would lead Bristolians to believe:

Perhaps one of the most interesting aspects of this whole Victorian charade is the fact that the much vaunted charitable efforts of the Colston Societies were largely superficial. For example, in 1884, the combined contribution of all the Colston related charities made up only 1.5 per cent of the total cost of relieving the poor that year. Not only was the amount collected fairly insignificant, despite all the fanfare, but it was also distributed in a badly organised and arbitrary manner.

https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/myths-within-myths/
 
The statue of Colston is no loss culturally, artistically, or, even, educationally. It's just a pity that no one had dare make that decision, and pulled it down safely, before the weekend. Bristol is a better place now
 
Now that surprised me. I'm familiar with the "triangular trade" story of slaves taken directly from Africa to the West Indies and America, and the sugar, tobacco and cotton which was the produce of their labour shipped to Britain, but not that slaves were brought to Britain, specifically because as I understood it slavery was not lawful here (though plenty were happy to tolerate and profit from it overseas). Is it really the case that African slaves were held in Bristol?
Yes. Though mainly as 'personal' slaves, it wasn't a major stop-over for slave ships, mostly for practical reasons. There were also a few who were 'personal property' of slaver crews or who were brought back to Bristol or Liverpool because they were unsaleable in the usual markets. Not from humanitarian concerns but to avoid accusations of loss from their owners...
Some merchants returning from the colonies brought back a few body servants, e.g. the Pinneys, Braithwaites et cetera.

Then there were "privilege slaves" a form of bonus to successful slaver captains

The legal status of slavery in Britain was complicated; there were various legal judgements, generally stating that slavery was illegal in the country, and political actions (such as the Yorke–Talbot slavery opinion) which generally protected the slave trade. In the 1740 there were still slave markets in Britain, held in Liverpool (a city that is undeservedly avoiding scrutiny at the moment) and London.

If you peruse the British city newspapers of the period (for example) you'll see advertisements offering rewards for the return of escaped slaves. I remember one in an issue of the London Gazette in 1685 while researching another matter.
Likewise there are advertisements in the Bristol papers of slaves for sale.

The judgement by Mansfield (him again!) in the Somerset case in 1772 effectively made slave-holding within Britain only illegal (the judgement was carefully limited in scope). At that time there were small numbers of black held as slaves in Britain, mostly as personal servants.

Hope this helps.

ETA: from my notes. An item from Farley 's Bristol Journal of August 1723. One Captain Joyhn Gwythen offered for sale
a negro man aged about 20 years, well limb'd, fit to serve a gentleman or to be instructed in a trade
This was almost certainly a privilege slave.
 
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And anyone who knows me will know I say this through gritted teeth to be fair to Liverpool (as its various councils) has since the 80s been very open and upfront as to its role in the slave trades. It doesn’t hide its legacy.
 
I disagree; I think it should be recovered from the river and put into a museum in the same way Liverpool has done with much of its slavery monuments and history, as Gilbert Syndrome has mentioned. I don't think it should be returned to the plinth. We need to learn from history, not pretend it never happened.
Agreed, re-use the plinth and consign the 5.5m bronze to a museum.
 
Really people how big of a "Racist Monument Museum" industry do you think most countries can support?
 
That part seems believable. A couple of centuries ago if you talked about a black man in Britain you meant a man with black hair. That much I gleaned from, amongst others, Patrick O'Brian, who delighted in using quaint but authentic dialogue.
And yet there were "Africans" "Negroes" or whatever you want to call them (blackamoors?) in Britain for centuries. Upwards of 15,000 by 1760.
 
My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum.

What museum would want it? Few of these are some kind of great artistic and cultural artifact. I suggest you create and find a way to finance such a museum specifically for these statues.
 
My preference would be to recover the statue and put in a museum. Colston was just an extreme some parts bad, some parts good, version of us all, he was an evil slaver, who also did good by donating his money. His place in history has to be recognised.

I would then put up a new statue showing how much of Bristol's wealth came from slavery.

I would then repeat that process throughout the UK.


The London Docklands museum is quite good: London, Sugar & Slavery.
 
There are arguments that it is unfair to judge people who lived in the past by our current moral values. But statues to these people exist in our current reality; they are here now, in our time, and it is therefore certainly fair to judge them by our current values. The question is not if it was right for people to honor in 1860 a slaver, or a Confederate general, by building a statue in 1860. I think not, but that boat has sailed. They were honored by the standards of their time, by enough people to have made the statues happen. And because of the racist standards of the 1870s, 1880s, etc. the honor continued and statues stayed up.

But now most of us recognize slavery to be a horror and an affront to humanity. Time for the statues to come done and either be melted away or placed in a museum of horrors. We don’t have to continue to honor people just because moral standards in the past were not what we hold to be true now.

Well, this comes down to the difference between celebrating and remembering. Personally, I think history should be remembered, though obviously, not always celebrated. Then you could ask the question, should some people who were involved in doing bad things be celebrated? That's a question where we don't seem to be clear on the answer. We often celebrate people who had some involvement with less savoury things. Another puzzling question is what about buildings with a dubious past? Are they worthy of being torn down, are they worthy of serving as a form of remembrance? Can you consider some of these buildings as places that people celebrate?*

The tower of London is a massive tourist trap where people from all over the world happily buy up the merchandise and gather around to get a kick out of gruesome stories, despite the fact that people were imprisoned, tortured and killed there, many of them even innocent to some degree... Likewise, for instance, Ripper tours are similar, they are often full of exaggerated details to dazzle the crowd and enjoyed by people who often sport Ripper cosplay, of all things! There's even a Jack the Ripper museum that's less about remembering the victims and seemingly more about celebrating the murders like they're some Conan Doyle tale. So do some people and places deserve remembering? For what reasons? Can we still read literature, watch movies, listen to music, or admire the art of dubious people? Is that a form of celebration?

It's not so black and white to me (pun obviously intended).

England is steeped in history that isn't exactly brimming with joy, but are we celebrating the history or merely remembering it? What about holidays that we all celebrate on autopilot that are rooted in dark, sometimes violent origins? Are they still okay to celebrate?

With Colston, people are (rightly) offended by his links to the slave trade, and they feel that he shouldn't be celebrated. I don't disagree with that, I don't honestly care either way, but I don't disagree with it. So are more statues, buildings, monuments, works of art, and even people themselves, up for the same scrutiny? Do we re-evaluate history? Re-evaluate art?

Regarding slavery, it, obviously, was more than a blemish on humanity's history, and it still is, it never truly went away. The problem is that much of our country is rooted in it, from buildings to monuments to cultural institutions, industries, and on and on... So if we're talking about holding everything up to our current standards of morality, how much of our history that we're surrounded with are we realistically allowed to re-evaluate and possibly remove?
 
There's a pretty big goddamn space between "Judging people who lived a significant amount of time ago by our standards" and "Keeping monuments to them up."
 
Would Egyptian monuments and ancient Egyptian artifacts be destroyed if there was found to be any connection to slavery? Or, is that something different or not applicable?

It's a fair point. There's an argument to be made that the pyramids, for instance, were not actually the product of slave labour, but paid labour. So it depends how you view that period of history.
 

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