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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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I'm with BtC on this one. The self-selection effect of those who chose to be highly public activists is fairly strong, so we cannot assume that what we see online is remotely representative.
 
Are trans individuals really going cariacatured?

Or is it that's just the ones you've noticed?

If it is just the ones you notice, are they really caricatured or is it the apparent contrast of masculine features/feminine presentation (or vice versa) that makes it seem so?

If there are a lot who go unnoticed, is the prevalence of caricatured appearance greater than the prevalence of similarly subjectively judged "provocatively" dressed persons in general society?
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Are trans individuals really going cariacatured?

Or is it that's just the ones you've noticed?

If it is just the ones you notice, are they really caricatured or is it the apparent contrast of masculine features/feminine presentation (or vice versa) that makes it seem so?

If there are a lot who go unnoticed, is the prevalence of caricatured appearance greater than the prevalence of similarly subjectively judged "provocatively" dressed persons in general society?
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I'm going with a general trend.

I worked with several large companies a few years ago to help them set up trans-positive recruitment strategies so got to meet a lot of trans women across a wide cross-section of backgrounds and it's definitely more common than not.

I think the feeling is that by being more caricatured, it takes the eyes off the remaining masculine features, especially when viewed by men.

After all, I don't think there's much doubt that a majority of men will see a pair of 44DDD boobs first and might not even notice a protruding Adam's apple or a pair of hands that make Trump's look like a toddler's.

That may all change with wider acceptance.
 
The Atheist said:
I'm going with a general trend.

I worked with several large companies a few years ago to help them set up trans-positive recruitment strategies so got to meet a lot of trans women across a wide cross-section of backgrounds and it's definitely more common than not.

I think the feeling is that by being more caricatured, it takes the eyes off the remaining masculine features, especially when viewed by men.

After all, I don't think there's much doubt that a majority of men will see a pair of 44DDD boobs first and might not even notice a protruding Adam's apple or a pair of hands that make Trump's look like a toddler's.

That may all change with wider acceptance.
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In a large majority of cases, it's pretty obvious if someone is actually a dude, even if they have large boobs. I like to think that most of us (heterosexual males) these day definitely accept such a person, just not as a sexual partner.
 
The Atheist said:
I'm going with a general trend.

I worked with several large companies a few years ago to help them set up trans-positive recruitment strategies so got to meet a lot of trans women across a wide cross-section of backgrounds and it's definitely more common than not.

I think the feeling is that by being more caricatured, it takes the eyes off the remaining masculine features, especially when viewed by men.

After all, I don't think there's much doubt that a majority of men will see a pair of 44DDD boobs first and might not even notice a protruding Adam's apple or a pair of hands that make Trump's look like a toddler's.

That may all change with wider acceptance.
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I would like to point out the obvious that because you were not observing in a formal, objective manner, your recollection is loaded with cognitive bias and is not reliable.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I would like to point out the obvious that because you were not observing in a formal, objective manner, your recollection is loaded with cognitive bias and is not reliable.
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Very good - 15 points for Slytherin!

Mate, you might not have noticed, but this is a discussion forum, and people offer opinions occasionally, based on their anecdotal observations.

If you have some solidly researched and verified results on the following question, bring it forward:

What percentage of trans women choose caricatured female body types after transitioning?

Just be careful how you Google it, but surely at least one group of dedicated scientists or sociologists must have done PhD theses on that subject.

I look forward to you posting the results.

Cheers.
 
The Atheist said:
Very good - 15 points for Slytherin!

Mate, you might not have noticed, but this is a discussion forum, and people offer opinions occasionally, based on their anecdotal observations.
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And those don't meet the burden of proof when those opinions are claims of fact. And I will continue to point that out.
 
Here is an article from 2016 that I think gives a fairly balanced view on trans youth and desistance. It is interesting that in nearly 4 years we don't have much more literature on it.
 
Well, if you scream obscenities at anyone who proposes to investigate the phenomenon, encourage everyone to treat them as a pariah, get their funding withdrawn and their papers pulled, try to get them sacked and get legislation passed making it an offence to suggest to a child that they might want to think about it some more before getting themselves castrated and embarking on a life as a perpetual medical patient, yes, there might be a bit of a gap in the literature.
 
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Rolfe said:
Yeah, sure, evil terf witch, whatever. It's true though.
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females can't turn into males and vice versa is my position.
women and men or girls and boys though, are labels that are gender specific and I care not a jot if people want to swap them, i'm fine with it.
Transfemales are not females though and transmales aren't males.
 
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Rolfe said:
And males are really not threatened by transmales at all so it's all good.
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Haha! You've obviously never met a fa'afafine.

A few years ago a workmate of my wife got castled by one who thought he'd make a rude comment towards them one night and had his jaw broken.
 
Rolfe said:
And males are really not threatened by transmales at all so it's all good.
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The Atheist said:
Haha! You've obviously never met a fa'afafine.

A few years ago a workmate of my wife got castled by one who thought he'd make a rude comment towards them one night and had his jaw broken.
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Had to look that up, but fa'afafine are not transmales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa'afafine
Fa'afafine are people who identify themselves as having a third-gender or non-binary role in Samoa, American Samoa and the Samoan diaspora. A recognized gender identity/gender role in traditional Samoan society, and an integral part of Samoan culture, fa'afafine are assigned male at birth, and explicitly embody both masculine and feminine gender traits in a way unique to Polynesia. Their behaviour typically ranges from extravagantly feminine to conventionally masculine.[1]
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So a fa'afafine would be a person of male sex who identifies as a third gender whereas a transmale is a person of female sex who identifies as male (gender).
 
Zactly. In my experience men tend to laugh at transmen, or else describe being uncomfortable with the presence of a female in male facilities, but they never report feeling threatened.

The attempted pressure to get gay men to accept "gay transmen" as sexual partners seems mostly to have been met with laughter and derision, as opposed to the serious monstering of "cotton ceiling" and "it's transphobic to have genital preferences" that AGP men who claim to be lesbians are subjecting lesbian women to.
 
Puppycow said:
So a fa'afafine would be a person of male sex who identifies as a third gender...
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That's the officially sanctioned positioned, but they consider themselves women in the same way as any trans woman. They never for an instant think they're different from both genders.

The "third gender" thing is a kind of doublethink for Samoans, who are 99% christian and strongly anti-gay.

Combine that with very strict parents and moral structure that says virginity must be preserved for marriage and a lot of young guys in Samoa lose their virginity to fa'afafine, which would be considered gay as hell if they didn't become "third gender" by wearing a dress and makeup.

Puppycow said:
...whereas a transmale is a person of female sex who identifies as male (gender).
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One of my daughter's best friends was a girl who transitioned to male at age 16.

You want to talk about fear and bullying? Try that route - boys were disgusting to him, and girls mocked him, but he's stuck with it and now has a bloody gorgeous fiancee.
 
So the transman was bullied and in fear. That isn't surprising at all, sadly. I'll just bet no actual men were ever in fear of the transman though.
 
No sooner do the lockdowns lift than the trans/women debate rears its head yet again.

First off, J K Rowling makes the perfectly reasonable statement about using the term "people who menstruate" being a bit unnecessary, since "women" works fine: https://www.thecut.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-accused-of-transphobia-over-twitter-commentary.html

And first out of the gates in ticking her off is Harry Potter himself, who, along with many others, seems to think that insisting women are different from trans-women is transphobic: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daniel-radcliffe-jk-rowling-trans-tweets_n_5edee596c5b6948cbc5c685b

Period poverty is a real thing many women have to face, but no trans will ever have to.

It's so bad that the NZ government has just announced free menstrual products will be available at all schools, because up to 1/3 of girls have missed school while menstruating due to lack of access to those products.

This is a perfect example of why the claim that trans women are the same as biological women is complete nonsense.
 
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