Jogging in Georgia while black.

[Garb]

Your logic and attempts at supporting evidence are preposterous! It seems you haven't even read the Police report.

In the Police report Greg McMichael admits he chased Arbery.

This police report?

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6883377-Ahmaud-Arbery-Police-Report.html

The report never mentions Arbery by name except for him being listed in the "Involvements" section. He is referred to as an "unidentified male".

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

This police report?

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6883377-Ahmaud-Arbery-Police-Report.html

The report never mentions Arbery by name except for him being listed in the "Involvements" section. He is referred to as an "unidentified male".

Are you saying this report proves that the suspect Travis McMichael killed...somebody else? The same day? A double homicide that has been covered up!

 

[Leftus]

They were roadblocking ahead of him. I see means of escape to the left and right.

You seriously think the tactical move is to rush them? Virtually guaranteed death.

How fast does he run, and what is the velocity of buckshot?

He already tried to run once, and they caught up with him once. How many times do you think an armed posse is going to let you run away? How much stamina do you have left to win a foot chase against yahoos in trucks?

Yes, in that situation, closing the distance on the shotgun guy is a smart thing to do. If you can get inside his ability to point it at you, it's a smart choice. also, if you get in close, his friends are unlikely to fire so they don't shoot their buddy. I think his problem is that he didn't fully commit to the plan. Or his plan was not the best one for the circumstance. Was his plan to disarm, which would have been a mistake, or engage in close combat and disable the shooter? We will never know, but while his execution of his plan will never be known, it's not a bad idea per se.

 

[Garb]

Are you saying this report proves that the suspect Travis killed...somebody else? The same day? A double homicide that has been covered up!

I thought we were talking about whether or not the gunmen specifically knew who they were chasing. The discussion that led to you saying the claim that they chased a man who was "unidentified" was absurd.

What about this post do you take issue with? And what about the police report debunks what he says?

Well, so far Roddy is not charged as an accessory and his video contradicts the claims by Greg. We have no evidence of a chase but evidence that the McMichaels ambushed, attacked and killed an UNIDENTIFIED black man running on the street.

Remember in the Police report from Greg McMichael the identity of the jogger was not known.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

K, it’s 2:38am and suddenly your security camera sends you an alert. You view the feed and in your back yard is either:

A.) 2 12 year old white boys, or
B.) One 25 year old athletic black male with a big poofed up Afro-ish haircut, no shirt on

Your level of concern is identical in these two scenarios?

If your assertion is that only racists would feel any higher level of concern for option B, then I hate to break it to you but 99.95% of humanity is racist then, including blacks.

I thought we were talking about people on an empty building site during the day, in the context of whether or not they would opportunistically steal anything lying around.

In the exact scenario you are now describing I'd be more concerned with b), but only because the person in question was an adult (although, of course, there are plenty of 12 year old white boys in gangs who carry knives and would be a threat). The colour of everybody's skin, the fact that he's "athletic", his hairstyle, and the fact that he's not wearing a shirt would be irrelevant. Unless it was a cold night and the lack of shirt might indicate that he was not cognisant to that fact due to being under the influence of alcohol or some other substance which would make me suspicious of his reasoning.

I mentioned this in a thread the other day, but it's seeming to be increasingly relevant in this one. There was a thread on another forum recently. That forum is has a lot of members from all over the globe, and this particular thread was discussing the differences between America and other countries, as perceived by people who had lived both in America and in other countries - with responders being people who were either born in the US and lived abroad for at least a number of years, or people who were born outside of the US and who had lived there for at least a number of years.

The #1 thing that kept coming up time and time again was that America is fuelled by fear and paranoia in a way that other countries simply aren't.

Your fear and paranoia appears to be pointed mainly in one particular direction. But, no matter what veneer you put on it, it's never seemed at all rational. It really does seem just like fear and paranoia.

I mean, you like to tout context-free statistics about crime rates as a justification for your racism, but what are you actually saying here? That you find someone's haircut threatening.

Assuming that this isn't all some weird performance art on your part, I genuinely feel sorry for you. And I don't mean that in a kind of "oh, this is a cool, belittling thing to say in a debate" way. I mean that it's honestly sad to imagine what it must be like to view the world through the lens that you do. It's especially so if your earlier assertion that you used not to have these prejudices and were relatively recently radicalised through online indoctrination is true.

I hope you start to apply some genuine critical thinking to your views. The world will be better off, but so will you.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I thought we were talking about whether or not the gunmen specifically knew who they were chasing. The discussion that led to you saying the claim that they chased a man who was "unidentified" was absurd.

What about this post do you take issue with? And what about the police report debunks what he says?

I take issue with the claim in the post that there is "no evidence of a chase". The police report debunks that claim. And also, evidence.

 

[dejudge]

How fast does he run, and what is the velocity of buckshot?

He already tried to run once, and they caught up with him once. How many times do you think an armed posse is going to let you run away? How much stamina do you have left to win a foot chase against yahoos in trucks?

This is the precise problem with the statement from Greg McMichael and the released video by Roddy.

Look at the video carefully. The truck is stopped or parked and the jogger has more than 10 seconds before he approaches the person with the shot gun.

Now, if it is supposed the McMichaels had already chased him down and he escaped then all he has to do is simply turn around and run the other way leaving the gunman standing outside the truck.

Remember the jogger would have been perhaps at least 150 feet away from the truck.

It does not seem to me that the jogger realized that the people in the truck were about to attack him until he saw the man with the shotgun exit the truck possibly aimed at him as he approached the truck.

In any event, Roddy is an extremely important witness because he may know if there was an actual chase or if the McMichaels simply passed the jogger and then waited for him armed at the junction of Satilla Drive.

It must be noted that during the video we do not see the truck passing Roddy or the jogger. The truck was already in position before the video starts.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Now, if it is supposed the McMichaels had already chased him down and he escaped then all he has to do is simply turn around and run the other way leaving the gunman standing outside the truck.

He already did that once. He must have, otherwise there would be no reason for him to be running back that way down Holmes.

And now he has Roddy chasing behind him. Maybe Roddy made a feeble attempt to stop him as Greg claims, or maybe not. Either way, Roddy was following behind him as shown in the video.

No matter what Roddy did, Arbery is being followed by a car that may or may not be a part of the posse. He can't really just simply turn around and run the other way.

It does not seem to me that the jogger realized that the people in the truck were about to attack him until he saw the man with the shotgun exit the truck possibly aimed at him as he approached the truck.

That is in part while I speculated about Travis threatening Arbery on 2/11. It makes an elegant solution to a lot of the questions. If Travis had threatened him, then he is just running around trying to avoid the truck...until he sees Travis with the shotgun. Holy moly...that's the guy who said he would kill me if he ever saw me around here again...and here I am...and there he is...and he's going to kill...me. No choice but to charge at him.

Of course, that is just speculation. But it is reasonable to believe that Travis could have made such a threat on 2/11. That would be perfectly normal in the circumstances. But there is absolutely no evidence for that.

And I think it is difficult to try to psychoanalyze why Arbery behaved the way he did when he was approaching the truck; whether he was jogger getting a drink of water at the house or the guy that stole Travis's gun. That's a very scary unforeseen situation. High stress. People can act in unpredictable ways in those circumstances. Trying to draw conclusions from actions in those situations is usually futile.

 

[The Common Potato]

Don't think he should be shot even if he was a burglar, don't think a bunch of Georgia rednecks should be allowed to run around with shotguns ready, but the video from the doorbell cam is a little hard to explain.
When you stop jogging, look around to see if anyone sees you, then go into an open garage door come out and walk around the other side of the house and then when you hear sirens start jogging again, well, what are you doing?
It may be someone else in the doorbell cam video, maybe.
Still don't think he should be shot, but he may not have been so innocent.

He shouldn't even have been approached. The shooters had already called the police; their involvement should have stopped at this stage. Rednecks seeing themselves as a modern-day John Wayne... again.

 

[wareyin]

That is in part while I speculated about Travis threatening Arbery on 2/11. It makes an elegant solution to a lot of the questions. If Travis had threatened him, then he is just running around trying to avoid the truck...until he sees Travis with the shotgun. Holy moly...that's the guy who said he would kill me if he ever saw me around here again...and here I am...and there he is...and he's going to kill...me. No choice but to charge at him.

Of course, that is just speculation. But it is reasonable to believe that Travis could have made such a threat on 2/11. That would be perfectly normal in the circumstances. But there is absolutely no evidence for that.

And I think it is difficult to try to psychoanalyze why Arbery behaved the way he did when he was approaching the truck; whether he was jogger getting a drink of water at the house or the guy that stole Travis's gun. That's a very scary unforeseen situation. High stress. People can act in unpredictable ways in those circumstances. Trying to draw conclusions from actions in those situations is usually futile.

How wide is the truck, and how fast are you thinking Arbery ran across it to meet Travis at what appears to be the passenger side headlight, or at best the direct center. Did he turn and take one step? Or just turn? In American Football a receiver has to at least take 2 steps to demonstrate a "football move". Are we holding Arbery to tighter or looser standards than that?

Oh, wait, none of that matters. We all agree that he had first tried to flee, then when pursued by gun toting assailants he still went around the truck to avoid them. After 2 attempts to evade them, Arbery was met at the front of the truck by Travis with a shotgun while Greg was in the back of the truck with a handgun, leaving Arbery nowhere else to run. Then Travis shot him 3 times.

 

[Meadmaker]

I think he was using the truck as a way to close the distance with Travis and do a surprise attack, I think he'd decided on going for the shotgun as soon as he saw Travis stop the truck and get out.

This is a wonderful illustration of the wooish/CT mind at work. Racism is basically a type of woo belief. Utterly irrational. Totally unsustainable in the light of any critical thinking at all, and yet the belief is maintained.

The conspiracy theorist bends and warps every piece of encountered evidence into something that fits the conspiracy theory. So, we have a case where a man is being threatened with deadly force, and instead of interpreting his actions as a desperate attempt to take whatever action he can to save his life, it becomes part of a master plan.

Travis threatens Arbery as Arbery is running down the left side of the road. Arbery goes to the right. Most people might view this as trying to get away from the man with the gun, but in Skeptic Tank's mind, it becomes an aggressive act. It's part of his plan to run around the truck, circle it, and attack Travis. Travis facilitates the plan by actual moving toward Arbery, beginning to circle the truck in the opposite direction, falling into Arbery's trap, making it easier to attack Travis. Seizing the opportunity, the vicious negro launches his plan to execute the white man by seizing his shotgun, but the white man is too quick for him, maintaining control of the weapon and successfully ending the life of the rampaging savage.

It's utterly daft, but we're used to that from the woos, the CTists, the wide variety of nutty beliefs that ended up creating this site. We also know, from experience, that it is unlikely any amount of data, evidence or analysis will dissuade the irrational from their beliefs. Something in their psyche will not let them see what is in front of them.

I cannot say at what point Mahmaud Arbery decided to try and take Travis' shotgun. What I am absolutely certain of is that this idea would not have occurred to him if no one had threatened him with a shotgun.

 

[Leftus]

Now, if it is supposed the McMichaels had already chased him down and he escaped then all he has to do is simply turn around and run the other way leaving the gunman standing outside the truck.

How many times can he do this before he becomes too fatigued to defend himself or even return home?

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

How wide is the truck, and how fast are you thinking Arbery ran across it to meet Travis at what appears to be the passenger side headlight, or at best the direct center. Did he turn and take one step? Or just turn? In American Football a receiver has to at least take 2 steps to demonstrate a "football move". Are we holding Arbery to tighter or looser standards than that?

Oh, wait, none of that matters. We all agree that he had first tried to flee, then when pursued by gun toting assailants he still went around the truck to avoid them. After 2 attempts to evade them, Arbery was met at the front of the truck by Travis with a shotgun while Greg was in the back of the truck with a handgun, leaving Arbery nowhere else to run. Then Travis shot him 3 times.

None of that matters in terms of the legal situation or even the social or political situation.

But I think it is a bit odd that Arbery chose to turn and rush Travis instead of...stopping and putting his hands up, trying to escape running through a yard, ignoring them and just keep running down the road. I had to have known they were chasing him because he was on the property he wasn't supposed to be on. Whether he was sneaking a drink of water or scoping out stuff to steal or even had stolen the fishing equipment and Travis's gun, they weren't going to kill him over some trespassing or even might theft.

He could have done a number of things. He chose the absolutely most dangerous one. Rushing a guy with a shotgun. With a guy inthe back of truck who is surely armed. And being followed by another guy who is also probably armed. That is not going to turn out well.

But that is what he did. For some reason. And I think it is reasonable to question why he did that when there were much more reasonable and safer options.

Maybe he was spooked. Or...maybe Travis had threatened him on 2/11, which would not only explain his action but also the rather unreasonable actions of the McMichaels. Just a speculation that would make things tidy.

 

[RedStapler]

The victim shaming in this thread is truly atrocious.

 

[The Common Potato]

As a young man and teenager, I often wandered derelict buildings, idle construction sites, open fields, closed parks, and other places that were technically trespassing without being murdered.

I lived here when the place was brand new, in the early 1970s. I was perhaps eight or nine at the time and only about one third of the properties had been completed. The area was still literally a construction site and us kids spent a lot of time mucking about on the the waste ground - building dens and pretending to be goodness knows what, working out how to start bulldozers and dumper trucks with a screwdriver.

No one was shot but the many talkings to we received were awfully severe.

 

[bluesjnr]

I lived here when the place was brand new, in the early 1970s. I was perhaps eight or nine at the time and only about one third of the properties had been completed. The area was still literally a construction site and us kids spent a lot of time mucking about on the the waste ground - building dens and pretending to be goodness knows what, working out how to start bulldozers and dumper trucks with a screwdriver.

No one was shot but the many talkings to we received were awfully severe.

In context, this must rank as the most utterly pointless post yet in this thread.

 

[Babbylonian]

In context, this must rank as the most utterly pointless post yet in this thread.

Wrong again. It's this one, which is just barely ahead of the one I'm quoting.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

I think he was using the truck as a way to close the distance with Travis and do a surprise attack, I think he'd decided on going for the shotgun as soon as he saw Travis stop the truck and get out.

This is a wonderful illustration of the wooish/CT mind at work. Racism is basically a type of woo belief. Utterly irrational. Totally unsustainable in the light of any critical thinking at all, and yet the belief is maintained ..

No, Skeptik Tank is merely allowing himself to indulge in exactly the same kind speculation as most not-racist liberal-progressives do here.

Fair's fair, I would say.

 

[Ranb]

I think he was using the truck as a way to close the distance with Travis and do a surprise attack, I think he'd decided on going for the shotgun as soon as he saw Travis stop the truck and get out.

That only makes sense if Arbery brought his own gun to the gunfight. Your claim is full of crap again.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

To understand how he thinks it's relevant imagine that you honestly believed that black people were violent criminals, disproportionately so, and that the explanation for this was genetic. So Australia doesn't need people to go around executing people for minor offences because there aren't as many bad black people that the good white people need protection from.

Clearly the argument is that criminality is an inherited trait and Australia is safe because it never had a historical forced influx of people with a tendency to criminal behaviour. Right? Can't see any problems likely to come up with that arguement...