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Okay so we've gotten the racists apologist from "It's good that a maybe guilty of something black guy was gunned down in the street" to "It's good that a black guy guilty of a minor crime was gunned down in the streets."

Black people's lives do not become forever forfeit the first time they break a law.
 
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Well yeah because from a lot of people (not you to be clear) "narrative" simply seems like a way of rebranding "spin" or "bias" or even "outright lying" into something more positive.

"Well that's your narrative and this is my narrative" is a phrase/concept we hear a lot in a lot of discussions I don't know if that's a good way to frame it.

I've never heard anybody use the word like that, although I accept that that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
 
I decided just now to overlay some images of him from the day he was killed and was in that house on some of the earlier ones:

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/iAVkhqy.png[/qimg]

To be honest, it's a bit of a hard call. Wasn't expecting to say that, but the guy at night does look lighter skinned. However, I've seen stuff like that result from the night vision mode so that may be what is causing that. The hair looks very similar.

I think at trial if they seek to confirm it, the apparent large arm tattoo on the guy when he's shirtless at night should be a good way to confirm it.

I think the odds are very strong it's him. If it's not, I would be very surprised if it wasn't at least a close friend of his.

Nice photos but what have they got to do with his murder? Can we see his murderers in those photos?
 
Nice photos but what have they got to do with his murder? Can we see his murderers in those photos?

If it can be shown that the deceased was regularly sneaking into this house and trespassing / stealing from it since before October of last year, this certainly makes the zeal with which the men around the neighborhood sought to get him caught and held accountable more understandable to the average person.

If they were convinced he was the thief of the gun that went missing, it helps make them going to confront him while armed more understandable to many people also.

So this is all about helping demonstrate that a reaction on the part of the McMichaels which has been portrayed as wildly out of proportion / crazy / inexplicable actually has more basis in reality and rationality than people first thought. It also helps to establish why the deceased might've been so adamant about getting away and prepared to be violent toward that end, if he knew he was being identified as not just a guy who went inthere that day and might be able to talk his way out of it, but someone who'd been there and stolen from it on many occasions before. It helps contextualize the amount of trouble he thought he might be in, and therefore explain his actions and passion about avoiding police contact. Hence the relevance.
 
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm certainly not a lawyer, but didn't he have the right to defend himself from an armed civilian even if he did commit a petty crime?

Probably yes, legally. Certainly morally. Even if he was casing/stealing (unproven), being menaced with guns is a much more serious and separate crime than petty theft or trespassing, and doesn't warrant armed response.

I think whether or not it was a murder hinges on whether the gun was pointed at Arbery prior to him grabbing it. If yes, he was defending himself. If no, and you can actually carry loaded shotguns in the street in Georgia (shudder), than no.
 
If it can be shown that the deceased was regularly sneaking into this house and trespassing / stealing from it since before October of last year, this certainly makes the zeal with which the men around the neighborhood sought to get him caught and held accountable more understandable to the average person.

But not anything to do with them deciding to undertake criminal actions whilst armed with lethal weapons and thus murdering him.
If they were convinced he was the thief of the gun that went missing, it helps make them going to confront him while armed more understandable to many people also.
But not anything to do with them deciding to undertake criminal actions whilst armed with lethal weapons and thus murdering him.

So this is all about helping demonstrate that a reaction on the part of the McMichaels which has been portrayed as wildly out of proportion / crazy / inexplicable actually has more basis in reality and rationality than people first thought. It also helps to establish why the deceased might've been so adamant about getting away and prepared to be violent toward that end, if he knew he was being identified as not just a guy who went inthere that day and might be able to talk his way out of it, but someone who'd been there and stolen from it on many occasions before. It helps contextualize the amount of trouble he thought he might be in, and therefore explain his actions and passion about avoiding police contact. Hence the relevance.

But not anything to do with them deciding to undertake criminal actions whilst armed with lethal weapons and thus murdering him.
 
Probably yes, legally. Certainly morally. Even if he was casing/stealing (unproven), being menaced with guns is a much more serious and separate crime than petty theft or trespassing, and doesn't warrant armed response.

I think whether or not it was a murder hinges on whether the gun was pointed at Arbery prior to him grabbing it. If yes, he was defending himself. If no, and you can actually carry loaded shotguns in the street in Georgia (shudder), than no.

No it doesn't. It depends on whether it is a legal action for a citizen to prevent the legal movements of a fellow citizen in a public place by threatening them with a lethal weapon.
 
No it doesn't. It depends on whether it is a legal action for a citizen to prevent the legal movements of a fellow citizen in a public place by threatening them with a lethal weapon.

And if a reasonable person would construe what they were doing as a threat.
 
If there's a person standing in front of me holding a gun but I can't defend myself (legally or morally) until he raises it that basically means I can't defend myself until I'm already dead.

This isn't the movies. The bad guy isn't going to raise the gun, dramatically cock it, and then launch into a monologue about how "Before you die, I wanted to look you in the eyes so you know who it was that killed you..." and leave me an opening so I can "Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4" it away from him.

If he's raised the gun it's too late to defend yourself.
 
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm certainly not a lawyer, but didn't he have the right to defend himself from an armed civilian even if he did commit a petty crime?

The short answer is yes, but the longer answer is a judgement call from the jury.

Suppose you catch someone in the act of committing a petty crime. You demand that he stop. He doesn't stop. He takes off running. You pursue. You find yourself looking at him, and he is coming toward you. You have a gun. Now what?

The question before the jury may end up with whether or not a reasonable person in that situation would have a fear for his life. I am talking about "you" in the above example, i.e. the person who draws the gun after catching someone committing a petty crime. Does he have the right to pull the gun in order to threaten the petty criminal?

A jury will have to weigh all the facts, and the relevant law. However, juries don't always follow the law to the letter. They sort of substitute their own judgement about the circumstances. For example, suppose that the person committing the petty crime had a strong resemblance to someone who was on a wanted poster in the post office. The jury would weigh that, and their ultimate decision might end up influenced by whether or not the person actually was the person on the wanted poster.

In this case, there will be a lot of questions. If the jury believes that Mr. Arbery was actually an habitual offender, and the McMichaels were aware that he was an habitual offender, they are likely to believe that Travis McMichael raising his shotgun would be a reasonable response to the situation, and the McMichaels might get off.

The interesting thing, legally, in this case is that the actual killing of Mr. Arbery is only marginally relevant in this case. At the time of the struggle, there is no doubt that a reasonable person in either of their situations would perceive that their lives were in danger, and lethal force was justified. What will determine whether the McMichaels go free will be whether actions prior to the killing were the responsibility of the McMichaels, or or Ahmaud Arbery.

And I'm saying "the McMichaels", but there may be a difference in how they treat Gregory and Travis McMichael.

In my opinion, grabbing guns and pointing them at people is almost always a bad idea, and it seems to me the McMichaels ought not to have done that. However, if they can convince a jury that it was a reasonable thing to do, they'll go free.
 
No it doesn't. It depends on whether it is a legal action for a citizen to prevent the legal movements of a fellow citizen in a public place by threatening them with a lethal weapon.

In the insane world of American law, merely having a loaded shotgun with you isn't considered a threat. In some jurisdictions, displaying that weapon isn't considered a threat. However, in every jurisdiction, if you actually point it at someone, it's a threat. Therefore, whether or not it was pointed at him may very well be the key factor in deciding it was a threat.
 
If it can be shown that the deceased was regularly sneaking into this house and trespassing / stealing from it since before October of last year, this certainly makes the zeal with which the men around the neighborhood sought to get him caught and held accountable more understandable to the average person.

If they were convinced he was the thief of the gun that went missing, it helps make them going to confront him while armed more understandable to many people also.

So this is all about helping demonstrate that a reaction on the part of the McMichaels which has been portrayed as wildly out of proportion / crazy / inexplicable actually has more basis in reality and rationality than people first thought. It also helps to establish why the deceased might've been so adamant about getting away and prepared to be violent toward that end, if he knew he was being identified as not just a guy who went inthere that day and might be able to talk his way out of it, but someone who'd been there and stolen from it on many occasions before. It helps contextualize the amount of trouble he thought he might be in, and therefore explain his actions and passion about avoiding police contact. Hence the relevance.

Oh good, so it wasn't a completely braindead attempt at a citizen's arrest, but actual premeditated vigilantism.
 
No it doesn't. It depends on whether it is a legal action for a citizen to prevent the legal movements of a fellow citizen in a public place by threatening them with a lethal weapon.

If Travis stopped his truck in the street and just stood by the drivers door with a gun, he was not preventing anything or even breaking a law. Maybe illegal parking. Keep in mind, on your street or mine, any of this gun-toting would be a serious crime. Not so in Georgia USA.

Having a gun on the streets down in this particular holler is not preventing movement, or threatening, or anything like that. Any assault was only in your feelings, unless Travis directed that gun at Arbery. Its unthinkable to you or I. Its normal and legal there.
 
If there's a person standing in front of me holding a gun but I can't defend myself (legally or morally) until he raises it that basically means I can't defend myself until I'm already dead.

This isn't the movies. The bad guy isn't going to raise the gun, dramatically cock it, and then launch into a monologue about how "Before you die, I wanted to look you in the eyes so you know who it was that killed you..." and leave me an opening so I can "Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4" it away from him.

If he's raised the gun it's too late to defend yourself.

You do see that your argument is that 'well, he wasn't doing anything illegal, but I didn't want to take any chances so I attacked him', right? Who's classic argument does that sound like?
 
One day, maybe - SURELY - someone here will come up with a "... while black" story that doesn't end up being revealed as the usual corporate media spin and ************, and ISF locals don't step on that rake Bogative mentioned, lying in wait for them. Again.
 
We're pretty much on the level of a child in the backseat of a car on a long road trip, hovering their finger a half inch away from their siblings face going "I'm not touching you can't get mad, I'm not touching you, can't get mad."

The difference is when the sibling gets mad and slaps the other sibling's hand away the first sibling doesn't get to open up the other sibling with a shotgun because "they reacted to my obvious power play so I can react with any level of response I want."

This is nothing but making up excuses for some sort of "Go ahead... make my day / Go ahead, give a reason" mentality.
 
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Then challenge open carry laws. That's the problem here.

In my own beloved NJ, you'd be right. In Georgia, you are wrong.
 
You do see that your argument is that 'well, he wasn't doing anything illegal, but I didn't want to take any chances so I attacked him', right? Who's classic argument does that sound like?

Again let's take a black guy and just have him hold a shotgun but not "brandish" it on the corner of your typical suburban neighborhood and see what happens and who's defending it and who's not.
 
One day, maybe - SURELY - someone here will come up with a "... while black" story that doesn't end up being revealed as the usual corporate media spin and ************, and ISF locals don't step on that rake Bogative mentioned, lying in wait for them. Again.

So a black person wasn't murdered while out for a run, because two 'good ol boys' thought he committed a crime?

Well, makes two people in this thread who feel that black people are not deserving of rights and freedoms.. and life.
 
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