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Historical Jesus

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You don't know what you are talking about.

You lack the basic understanding of the beliefs of the Jesus cult or is deliberately omitting the belief that their Jesus resurrected.

NT authors claimed that their Jesus was born was God Creator, that he was crucified, that he died and then resurrected.

The Jesus cult believe their Jesus conquered death.

CEB

Jesus cult christians do not worship men as Gods.

Romans 1

The Jesus cult believed their Jesus lives and sits on the right hand of God.

NT Jesus was God.

NT Jesus resurrected.

NT Jesus was never born, never died like a dog, never resurrected and never ascended into heaven.

NT Jesus is fiction.

Blah, blah blah

You're still missing HansMustermann's point.

Its like you're not even listening to what anyone else is saying, just repeating your dogmatic mantra over and over in the hope that doing so will somehow magically make it all true.
 
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Blah, blah blah

You have nothing to contribute.
You're still missing HansMustermann's point.

Its like you're not even listening to what anyone else is saying, just repeating your dogmatic mantra over and over in the hope that doing so will somehow magically make it all true.

HansMustermann has no points - never had.

I simply exposed your repeated fallacies. You are not looking at what is written in the NT Jesus stories.

NT authors claimed their Jesus was crucified, was buried and resurrected on the third day and that their Jesus did predict those events will come to pass.

Mark 9:31
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

1 Corinthians 15. 3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

It is resurrection that was the most significant belief of the Jesus cult.
 
You have nothing to contribute.

I beleive have more to contribute than your boring, repeated proclamations.

But even if you think I don't, I still have a right to participate in this debate. I have learned a lot about the issue from participating here.

Also, while I have had my differences with HansMustermann, I value his contributions because they inspire debate, and they clearly come from different directions and look at different aspects of the debate. Your contributions, on the other hand, stopped being valuable when it became clear that you were simply rinsing and repeating your own inflexible dogma. You aren't debating this issue, you are simply trying to brow beat and bash everyone who doesn't agree precisely with everything you are saying.

HansMustermann has no points - never had.

Oh, he has plenty of points, and they are valid ones too. Just because you refuse to get them doesn't mean they don't exist.

I simply exposed your repeated fallacies. You are not looking at what is written in the NT Jesus stories.

NT authors claimed their Jesus was crucified, was buried and resurrected on the third day and that their Jesus did predict those events will come to pass.

Mark 9:31

1 Corinthians 15. 3

It is resurrection that was the most significant belief of the Jesus cult.

Yeah, more blah, blah blah!

Time to change the record dejudge, you're just boring everyone now.
 
NT authors claimed their Jesus was crucified, was buried and resurrected on the third day and that their Jesus did predict those events will come to pass.
Surely you can't seriously think that there's anybody here who denies that or is unaware of it, can you? If not, then what is the point of harping on it so much? Is there some corollary/implication from it that you are using it to argue for? If so, perhaps you should have gotten to the point sometime within the first few dozen repetitions. There's not much point to an "if X, then Y" that never gets to Y but just consists of repeating X over & over again.

It is resurrection that was the most significant belief of the Jesus cult.
It's not something they all even agreed happened at first, nevermind making it the most significant thing. There were at least 40 gospels, so the Bible only preserves at most 10% of them, and some early alternative Christian groups weren't represented by any gospels at all. Some not only had him dying without resurrection but also said he was entirely human and a sinner. They just thought he was the latest & greatest of the prophets, humans who spoke for God and were worth listening to. The fact that they got filtered out down to the narrower form of Chrisitanity that we know of today doesn't mean they didn't exist at first. (One even ended up as a major religion of today's world, just not under the name "Christianity".)
 
Many Scholars use Acts as a credible historical source for Saul/Paul's travels around the Roman Empire.

Christian apologists will do this to validate their religious beliefs but I’m referring to proper historical scholarship - and this does not regard Luke/Acts as reliable history. Not least because of discrepancy in dating.

Jesus was not a real figure of history that is precisely why NT authors claimed he was born of a ghost. There were never any documents of his birth and life at any time.

What’s your point, all the best gods were born of a virgin. Many were raised from the dead too. No one here is saying that any of it is true.

Your imaginative Jesus story is complete fiction and without historical corroboration.

It is just total nonsense that people in the Roman Empire would worship as a God a known false prophet and dead crucified criminal who died like a dog in Jerusalem.

Just because we consider the Jesus story to be complete rubbish doesn’t mean that people at the time didn’t worship him – or more precisely the legend that grew around him. People historically have worshiped all sorts of nonsensical divinities but this doesn’t mean some didn’t have a basis in some sort of real figure.

People in the Roman Empire worshiped the great magician like Simon Magus as a God while he was alive.

Certainly, they did. People believe all sorts of stuff. They also believed that the magic-worker Apollonius of Tyana (a contemporary of Jesus) was a deity too. But, unlike Jesus, Apollonius didn’t have a good P/R man like Paul to plug his cause

NT Paul, the fabricated convert, is just as fictitious as Jesus and the disciples.

You keep asserting this ‘all-or-nothing’ scenario over and over. But very many competent scholars disagree with your simplistic argument.
 
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You don't know what you are talking about.

The NT Jesus story claims he resurrected on the third day.

NT authors claimed their Jesus born of a Ghost conquered death.

Well, yes, obviously. Getting power over death via some kind of struggle and/or suffering was stock and parcel for virtually all personal saviour cults that we know of. And for the dying and raising kind of gods, yes, that involved dying and then rising again. (Surprisingly enough. It's almost as if the clue is in the "dying and raising god" title;))

It wasn't even something new, really. Inanna had beaten them to that punchline by almost 2000 years, and Osiris by even more.

But nevertheless, to believe that he is a dying and raising god, first you have to believe the "dying" part. (Again, it's almost as if the clue is in the name;)) You can't ask someone to believe that X rose from the dead, unless they also believe that X was at some point dead. Otherwise there's nothing to rise FROM.

Same for Jesus, really. It's nonsense to say that they would believe the rising from the dead part, without believing that he died first.

So your assertion that they wouldn't worship some guy who got nailed and died 'like a dog' is blatantly false. That is EXACTLY the story that Xians asked you to believe, and EXACTLY the kind of guy they were asking you to worship: a guy who let himself be captured, got nailed to a stick and died. In fact to this day, THAT is the story that the church asks you to believe.

Yes, they also asked you to believe that he self-resurrected, but again: that doesn't negate the fact that he had to die first for that to be even possible.


I'm assuming that what you actually were trying to say is that they wouldn't worship him if they knew he STAYED dead. But that's a different claim, AND

1. Knowing that assumes a level of information that, again, just wasn't even possible to every peon 3000km away in the ancient world. They didn't have Internet or anything.

Especially for a crucified criminal, who would just be dumped into some unmarked mass grave nearby. I don't think anyone would have a handy record of every grave, for you to be able to go check if all the bodies are still in.

2. Even if checking that kind of stuff were possible -- which it wasn't -- you'd pretty much need everyone to be a skeptic, which REALLY wasn't the case back then. (And still isn't, even in this day of having Snopes, and generally the Internet and all.) Because if even just 1% are the gullible kind who'll just believe any nonsense they really want to believe -- see Paul's argument that it has to be real because otherwise we don't get our reward -- in a city of 90,000 like Corinth that would get you some 900 potential recruits. More than enough to start a church.

But more to the point we know that they didn't check much more outrageous claims.

E.g., Matthew's several hours eclipse on a full moon was a physical impossibility that would have been a lot easier to check if anyone recalls it, than whether some random tomb in Judaea was actually empty. Yet nobody did. In fact even when later some more educated guys figured out that it's physically impossible, they just handwaved it as, see, it means it's a real miracle.

E.g., Matthew's zombie invasion into a major city like Jerusalem would be a lot easier to check if it really happened. You just needed to find anyone from Jerusalem (including the thousands of slaves brought from there after the revolt) and ask them if they've ever heard of THAT monumental an event. I mean, wth, they didn't even have to be alive at the time. If even their granddad had witnessed a zombie horde descending into Jerusalem, they'd have heard about it.

Etc.

So really the idea that they'd have checked their facts before believing a religious tall tale, is plain old counter-factual.

3. When Mark or Matthew do seem to fear that their story doesn't stand to scrutiny (probably unjustified fear, btw), they have no problem just making it a literal conspiracy theory. Mark has Jesus ask everyone to keep it a secret after pretty much every miracle and most public appearances, and apparently everyone just did. Matthew says there's a literal conspiracy by the Jews to say that the resurrection never happened.

Basically, early Xianity is LITERALLY a conspiracy theory.

Which not only shows that they knew how to deal with knowing that their story is counter-factual, but shows that their audience was really THAT gullible. Because in effect Mark and Matthew don't even wait for you to ask for evidence or witnesses, they're telling you up front that, uh, no, everyone will tell you it didn't happen. Because they're all keeping it secret.

But obviously their audience isn't even fazed by being told up front that all witnesses would contradict the story.
 
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Surely you can't seriously think that there's anybody here who denies that or is unaware of it, can you? If not, then what is the point of harping on it so much? Is there some corollary/implication from it that you are using it to argue for? If so, perhaps you should have gotten to the point sometime within the first few dozen repetitions. There's not much point to an "if X, then Y" that never gets to Y but just consists of repeating X over & over again.

Of course there are people who have no idea what they are talking about!! There are people posting here who admit they have no idea whether or not Jesus existed and are unfamiliar with the NT and writings of antiquity.

I must repeat the facts over and over because of those posters who constantly produce endless fallacies.
It's not something they all even agreed happened at first, nevermind making it the most significant thing. There were at least 40 gospels, so the Bible only preserves at most 10% of them, and some early alternative Christian groups weren't represented by any gospels at all. Some not only had him dying without resurrection but also said he was entirely human and a sinner. They just thought he was the latest & greatest of the prophets, humans who spoke for God and were worth listening to. The fact that they got filtered out down to the narrower form of Chrisitanity that we know of today doesn't mean they didn't exist at first. (One even ended up as a major religion of today's world, just not under the name "Christianity".)

What evidence do you have to show what "happened at first"?

What evidence do you have that Jesus was entirely human?

You make up your own uncorroborated fable about what happened.

Please, please present actual evidence for your claims and stop wasting time.

The NT writings and the Church claimed their Jesus was born of a Ghost, walked on water, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud to heaven.

NT Jesus is fiction.

You seem to have no idea that a character can be still be fictional even without supernatural characteristics.
 
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So your assertion that they wouldn't worship some guy who got nailed and died 'like a dog' is blatantly false. That is EXACTLY the story that Xians asked you to believe, and EXACTLY the kind of guy they were asking you to worship: a guy who let himself be captured, got nailed to a stick and died. In fact to this day, THAT is the story that the church asks you to believe.

You continue to write repeated fiction.

You very well know the Creed of the Church.

Examine The Letter on the Council of Nicea.

3. We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by Whom also all things were made; Who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge the quick and dead. And we believe also in One Holy Ghost..

The belief of the Church is documented and they did believe their Jesus was God, crucified, died, resurrected, ascended to heaven and will come back a second time.

The Jesus of the Church is utter fiction.
 
What evidence do you have to show what "happened at first"?

Elementary, my dear Watson. The RCC as we know it, and thus its canon, didn't really exist until Irenaeus united a bunch of separate churches. That's when it even started to be "filtered" into what we'd now call the canon.

Anything before that would, yes, have happened "first", or in any case earlier than that canon being decided. And we know from Irenaeus himself that at that point it had splintered into a bewildering array of conflicting views. Including, yes, some where Jesus didn't raise at all.

In fact for most gnostics the whole POINT was to avoid coming back at all. In their cosmology, this lower and imperfect universe was basically a trap, and you needed some secret knowledge to escape it after you die. That's what their Jesus had come down to give us: the secret to how NOT to end up right back into this universe.

What evidence do you have that Jesus was entirely human?[...]

And here you do the usual going into dada land without even reading what you pretend to be answering to. Because that's not what he was saying. Basically you don't seem to be here for a discussion, or even really for presenting a coherent argument that addresses anyone's points. You just seem to be just using it as a soapbox from which to just repeat the same postulates, regardless of whether it even has anything to do with what the other person ever said.
 
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You continue to write repeated fiction.

You very well know the Creed of the Church.

Examine The Letter on the Council of Nicea.



The belief of the Church is documented and they did believe their Jesus was God, crucified, died, resurrected, ascended to heaven and will come back a second time.

The Jesus of the Church is utter fiction.

Notice the highlighted part? Yeah, that's what I was telling you about their position. Now you bark it back at me as some kind of rebutal.

In fact, what your own quote actually contradicts is YOUR statement that no, they wouldn't worship someone who got nailed and "died like a dog". Then you 'support' that by producing a creed which, surprise, does say he got nailed and died.

So, really, as usual, you didn't actually read or address any of it, you just took it as an excuse to just say your own stuff again, whether it actually has anything to do with what was being said or not.
 
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Elementary, my dear Watson. The RCC as we know it, and thus its canon, didn't really exist until Irenaeus united a bunch of separate churches. That's when it even started to be "filtered" into what we'd now call the canon.

So, tell us what was before Irenaeus? The NT Gospels and Epistles are mentioned in "Against Heresies".

The NT Gospels and Epistles state that their Jesus resurrected.
Anything before that would, yes, have happened "first", or in any case earlier than that canon being decided. And we know from Irenaeus himself that at that point it had splintered into a bewildering array of conflicting views. Including, yes, some where Jesus didn't raise at all.

You have no evidence of what happened first so please stop wasting time.

In fact for most gnostics the whole POINT was to avoid coming back at all. In their cosmology, this lower and imperfect universe was basically a trap, and you needed some secret knowledge to escape it after you die. That's what their Jesus had come down to give us: the secret to how NOT to end up right back into this universe.

Gnostics beliefs are based on pure mythological characters.

If the Gnostic Jesus was first then the character was utter fiction from the beginning.
 
Mate, here's a novel idea. How about you address what's actually written, instead of skipping to whatever canned point you were itching to see yourself post? I mean, if all you want to do is see yourself write 'smart' stuff, you can do it in Notepad, you know?

More to the point, neither me nor Delvo were saying anything about Jesus being real. We were talking about what the church story said, i.e., about BELIEFS. And more specifically how you're wrong about what they would or wouldn't believe.

Address that, or don't, but just jumping back and forth between random strawmen is not it.
 
..... People believe all sorts of stuff. They also believed that the magic-worker Apollonius of Tyana (a contemporary of Jesus) was a deity too. But, unlike Jesus, Apollonius didn’t have a good P/R man like Paul to plug his cause.

Apollonius was not a contemporary of NT Jesus.

NT Jesus was a water walking, transfiguring son of a ghost.

NT Jesus was total fiction.

But, unlike Jesus, Apollonius didn’t have a good P/R man like Paul to plug his cause.

Those who wrote about Apollonius claimed Paul and Peter were liars

See "Against Hierocles" attributed to Eusebius.

And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,--men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards, --the history of Apollonius was written by Maximus of Aegae, and by Damis the philosopher who lived constantly with him. and by Philostratus of Athens, men of the highest education, who out of respect for the truth and their love of mankind determined to give the publicity they deserved to the actions of a man at once noble and a friend of the gods."

The Jesus story in the Epistles and Gospels was a known pack of lies since at least the 4th century.

Maximus and Damis wrote nothing of your fiction character called Jesus.

How could they when he never ever existed!!!


You keep asserting this ‘all-or-nothing’ scenario over and over. But very many competent scholars disagree with your simplistic argument.

You write fiction.

Competent Scholars agree that Jesus did not exist and that the so-called Pauline Epistles were not written by Saul/Paul.
 
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Well, that some people who weren't Xians would think the story is a lie, is not all that surprising, really. I mean, if you actually believed that yep, that guy did all those miracles, and verily is THE one who has power over death, and can give you eternal life, you'd just convert, wouldn't you?

For something more impressive try the fact that even some Xians reached that conclusion, and even earlier, actually. Sorta. Well, they wouldn't necessarily come out and call it a lie, but for example Origen concludes that Jesus's travels and whatnot make no sense as something that literally happened, and should basically be taken as an allegory.
 
Well, that some people who weren't Xians would think the story is a lie, is not all that surprising, really. I mean, if you actually believed that yep, that guy did all those miracles, and verily is THE one who has power over death, and can give you eternal life, you'd just convert, wouldn't you?

For something more impressive try the fact that even some Xians reached that conclusion, and even earlier, actually. Sorta. Well, they wouldn't necessarily come out and call it a lie, but for example Origen concludes that Jesus's travels and whatnot make no sense as something that literally happened, and should basically be taken as an allegory.

I am extremely happy that you mention Origen.



See Against Celsus 1 attributed to Origen.

....let us see whether those who have blindly concocted these fables about the adultery of the Virgin with Panthera, and her rejection by the carpenter, did not invent these stories to overturn His miraculous conception by the Holy Ghost: for they could have falsified the history in a different manner, on account of its extremely miraculous character, and not have admitted, as it were against their will, that Jesus was born of no ordinary human marriage.

It was to be expected, indeed, that those who would not believe the miraculous birth of Jesus would invent some falsehood.

Please, I beg of you, don't concoct fables about Jesus.

Origen's Jesus was born of a Ghost.

Origen's Jesus is total fiction.
 
Mate, again, I never said it was for realz. Just that even Origen had figured out that some bits of the story can't be literally true.

But honestly, I don't think anyone in this thread said that the superman Jesus of the gospels is real. Some think that the superman Jesus character might have been INSPIRED by some real guy, in kind of the same way as the mad arab Abdul Al Hazred was inspired by Lovecraft's mom, but that's about it. I'm not even in that camp myself, but really, that's it. That's the extent of that claim. Nobody here is saying that the gospel character literally existed.

So I'm not sure why do you keep hammering on something that's been a strawman all along.
 
Mate, again, I never said it was for realz. Just that even Origen had figured out that some bits of the story can't be literally true.

But honestly, I don't think anyone in this thread said that the superman Jesus of the gospels is real. Some think that the superman Jesus character might have been INSPIRED by some real guy, in kind of the same way as the mad arab Abdul Al Hazred was inspired by Lovecraft's mom, but that's about it. I'm not even in that camp myself, but really, that's it. That's the extent of that claim. Nobody here is saying that the gospel character literally existed.

So I'm not sure why do you keep hammering on something that's been a strawman all along.

I simply pointed out that you really don't know what you are talking about.

Origen believed his Jesus was literally born of a Ghost.

See Against Celsus 1

Against Celsus 1
For who is ignorant of the statement that Jesus was born of a virgin, and that He was crucified, and that His resurrection is an article of faith among many, and that a general judgment is announced to come, in which the wicked are to be punished according to their deserts, and the righteous to be duly rewarded?

Origen also believed his Jesus literally resurrected.

Origen's Jesus is total fiction without a shred of historical corroboration.
 
I simply pointed out that you really don't know what you are talking about.

Origen believed his Jesus was literally born of a Ghost.

Considering that I never said he didn't, I'm not even sure what you think you're answering to. But then again, that seems to be the whole pattern of your 'contribution' here: not as much answering to anything, just using it as an excuse to hear yourself spout whatever 'smart' stuff you had prepared.
 
What is the point of quoting other people when the next thing you type after the quote box is never ever a response to what's in the quote box?
 
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