Meadmaker
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Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy questioned as Stockholm death toll mounts
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Massive backdown noted.
Coronavirus: Sweden (Worldometers)
In this context, lax is a much better word than liberal, less ambiguous.
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Unfortunately, what the Business Insider published one hour ago isn't true. Sweden has at least 591 deaths from coronavirus, 114 more since yesterday:
I alt 591 personer er dermed døde i Sverige, rapporterer SVT. (DR.dk, April 7, 2020)
angrysoba
Philosophile
Yeah, I noticed a friend of mine posted an article about how Sweden seems to be doing all right, maybe the rest of the world got it wrong...
...then I looked at the number of deaths in Sweden, and yes, 20% increase in one day, so basically they are doubling in 2 or 3 days. That could become a horrific number very quickly and with a lead time of two weeks or so before any mediation takes effect, I worry about where that could lead.
...then I looked at the number of deaths in Sweden, and yes, 20% increase in one day, so basically they are doubling in 2 or 3 days. That could become a horrific number very quickly and with a lead time of two weeks or so before any mediation takes effect, I worry about where that could lead.
Unfortunately they managed to infect people in over half of the "old-folks homes" in Stockholm and over 150 people died in them.
Note that deaths can take multiple days to be reported in, so you have to be careful in looking at the latest numbers since they will most likely be revised.
Note that deaths can take multiple days to be reported in, so you have to be careful in looking at the latest numbers since they will most likely be revised.
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uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
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The Swedish government is listening to the scientists in charge of coordinating the government's response. We don't know wether their approach is right or not yet. The number of deaths in Sweden as compared with our neighbours can be explained by Sweden being a week or so ahead of Norway and Denmark in the course of the pandemic.
If or when things get worse, the government has said that more restrictions will be put in place. In a few months we will know if the response was good enough or not. Nobody has the answers, so I feel it's unfair to say that the Swedish government is definitely wrong here. I also think it's a bit morbid to seemingly cheer on the number of deaths in Sweden.
If or when things get worse, the government has said that more restrictions will be put in place. In a few months we will know if the response was good enough or not. Nobody has the answers, so I feel it's unfair to say that the Swedish government is definitely wrong here. I also think it's a bit morbid to seemingly cheer on the number of deaths in Sweden.
angrysoba
Philosophile
I felt the same way about the UK response, assuming that the government was receiving good counsel from the chief scientist and medical officer, despite the fact that there were dissenting voices saying that UK government should implement stronger measures.
Now things look really bad in the UK, and any measures that have been implemented will take weeks to have an effect. This is why I worry about Sweden's policies being out of step with the rest of the world.
Yes, it would be absolutely morbid to cheer on the number of deaths. I scrolled up to see who had been doing it, and I couldn't find anyone. Which posts did you have in mind?
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
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Believe me, I worry as well. I just don't worry about Sweden chosing a different path than the rest of the world. I worry that we're chosing the wrong path, no matter who are or aren't doing the same thing. However, I would worry equally much if we had chosen another path, more akin to our neighbours.
I don't want to pick a fight over it. A couple of posts in the beginning of the thread strikes me as crowing about the number of deaths in Sweden in an attempt to 'own' another poster. I might have misunderstand the purpose of the post, but it struck me as in poor taste.
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Especially as lax means salmon. It implies something fishy is going on?
Been watching Vikings?
No, for the (very beneficial!) salmon-coronavirus connection, you will have to go to the Faroe Islands!
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Unfortunately for the Swedes, the lead scientist is an idiot! I would advise you to take a look at the graphs: Døde siden første dødsfald: Nyeste corona-tal fra Danmark og verden: Så mange er smittede, døde og indlagte (TV2, April 8, 2020)
You can compare the Scandinavian countries with each other and also with China, Korea, Spain, Italy and the USA. But you will have to take into account that Sweden is actually doing worse than it appears to be since their way of calculating the death toll is a little ... odd. (By the way, the USA just overtook Italy!)
"If or when"??! Things already got worse! And "in a few months" it will be much too late to do anything about it. Norway is obviously doing much better than Denmark and Sweden with its policy of testing as many as possible, and Sweden worst of all. You seem to be more concerned about the respect that the Swedish government is losing than about the Swedes dying because of its lax coronavirus policies.
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uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
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No, I'm not concerned about any loss of respect. I'm concerned that we're using the right approach, but I'm not confident enough one way or another to exclaim that our leading epedemiologist is an 'idiot' or that we need to drasticly change course.
There is an ongoing press conference where Tegnell, our chief epedemiologist claims that Sweden's r-value is 1, meaning we have started to flatten the curve in reported cases. According to the government, suggested social distansing is working. A plurality of the deaths come from retirement homes in the Stockholm region where the virus have taken root amongst the residents. The same problem does not currently exist elsewhere in Sweden.
ETA: Just to add, I've heard Sweden's response described as relying on herd-immunity. This is not the case. It's not what Sweden is doing. Sweden is and has been operating under the approach that while a majority of the population will be infected, the aim is to increase the time-span so that health services aren't overwhelmed.
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Soon enough Denmark will have to open up and the same development will occur there. You can't hide under your bed sheets forever, it's not exactly a sustainable strategy. Society can't just stop for 1 or 2 years waiting for a vaccine that may never exist.
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angrysoba
Philosophile
In fact, Denmark will be opening up somewhat from what I understand, just as parts of China are doing now.
However, at this point I see no reason to believe that reported cases have much in common with actual cases. They don't in Denmark, and I see no reason to think that it's any better in Sweden. The Norwegians have been testing much more than the Danes and the Swedes from the beginning of the outbreak, but I'm pretty sure that many cases have gone under the radar there as well. The number of deaths and hospitalized coronavirus patients seems to more reliable, but in Sweden it takes a couple of days for them to get registered, apparently.
Compare the Norwegian and Swedish numbers:
That would be similar to Denmark, but it appears to have started much later in Sweden. I would have preferred the Faroe approach, but we may have had too few virus-infected salmon around here, unfortunately.
ETA: See also: Dødelighed skal formentlig tælles i promiller: Danske blodprøver kaster nyt lys over coronasmitten (DR.dk, April 8, 2020)
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It's noteworthy that people without the faintest idea of the development and status of the Swedish healthcare system(s) and realities somehow feel that they are entitled to dictate what needs to happen, without even considering wheter it's realistic or even possible.
It's easy to imagine that by decisive leadership and the utilisation of coercive measures the situation would be so much better. Such as the notion in the UK that small business workshops were suddenly going to be pumping out ventilators, because of patriotic fervour fuelled by the great leaders oratory skills.
In reality you can't suddenly fix a serious problem with a lack of supplies, such as protective equipment, during a crisis like this. Systemic problems can't just be willed away.
In Sweden healthcare and care for the elderly are primarily the responsibility for the regional governments, not the central government. A lot of the regional governments have engaged in cost-cutting to such a point that they no longer have any emergency stockpiles at all. Everything is "Just-In-Time" and only the bare minimum is kept in storage. A concrete example of the problem this causes is that far to many people have been infected and died at elderly care facilities simply because the personnel did not sufficient protective equipment to minimise the risk of spreading the disease.
Oh and how people seem to think that you can test hundreds of thousands of people every day just because it's good idea. Apparently they never seem to wonder: who is going to do the testing? How will they be taken and where? How will they be transported and where will they be analysed by which persons? And above all else, how can this be done in such a way as to prevent the testing itself from spreading the disease?
Oftentimes it's not a lack of will that's the problem, but rather it the lack of means and the constraints of the political system that's the problem. Guess what: not every country is under a totalitarian state that can allocate an almost infinite amount of resources according to the whims of its leadership. Not in every country can millions of people be rounded up in concentration camps or forcibly quarantined.
It's easy to imagine that by decisive leadership and the utilisation of coercive measures the situation would be so much better. Such as the notion in the UK that small business workshops were suddenly going to be pumping out ventilators, because of patriotic fervour fuelled by the great leaders oratory skills.
In reality you can't suddenly fix a serious problem with a lack of supplies, such as protective equipment, during a crisis like this. Systemic problems can't just be willed away.
In Sweden healthcare and care for the elderly are primarily the responsibility for the regional governments, not the central government. A lot of the regional governments have engaged in cost-cutting to such a point that they no longer have any emergency stockpiles at all. Everything is "Just-In-Time" and only the bare minimum is kept in storage. A concrete example of the problem this causes is that far to many people have been infected and died at elderly care facilities simply because the personnel did not sufficient protective equipment to minimise the risk of spreading the disease.
Oh and how people seem to think that you can test hundreds of thousands of people every day just because it's good idea. Apparently they never seem to wonder: who is going to do the testing? How will they be taken and where? How will they be transported and where will they be analysed by which persons? And above all else, how can this be done in such a way as to prevent the testing itself from spreading the disease?
Oftentimes it's not a lack of will that's the problem, but rather it the lack of means and the constraints of the political system that's the problem. Guess what: not every country is under a totalitarian state that can allocate an almost infinite amount of resources according to the whims of its leadership. Not in every country can millions of people be rounded up in concentration camps or forcibly quarantined.
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So I guess that somebody has suggested that the solution to the coronavirus infections in Sweden is that "millions of people be rounded up in concentration camps or forcibly quarantined."
Could you tell us who would suggest a solution like that? And could you tell us why that appears to be the only alternative you can imagine to the lax attitude to the Covid-19 epidemic in Sweden?
Could you tell us who would suggest a solution like that? And could you tell us why that appears to be the only alternative you can imagine to the lax attitude to the Covid-19 epidemic in Sweden?
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