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Cont: 2019-nCoV / Corona virus Pt 3

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Everyone was confined to their cabins.

How long had passengers been infected before they knew it was a problem?

The infected people, asymptomatic and otherwise, were spreading there stuff all over the ship for some time period before they were confined.

They were having meals delivered to their cabins. Plenty of opportunity for contamination.

I could be wrong. I don't know the details of how the disease spread on the ship.
 
So yes, the numbers look to be optimistic in the real world. Keep an eye on it and let us know how close they got about the 20th.

Good idea! I'll just save this right here for posterity
iCPiqC5.png
 
Out of curiosity, and for a moment setting aside all my doubts about the pandemic as a whole, do you know why they don't take into account the very real possibility that the whole thing screeches to a halt as summer arrives, the way flu tends to?

I have taken that into account several times in this thread.

Given that it's unknown, I'll go deeper into it when it happens.

Why not 0.5% or 3% or 5%? It seems like you think 2% is a number you think "captures" something, for reasons you can't explain.

I gave you the precise reason why I chose it.

We're looking at a non-random event. You can't get Covid without having been exposed to the virus. 1% would probably be suitable enough, but to try to even out inconsistencies I've doubled that as a sample.

5% would be great and 10% would be better still, but since there are only a couple of countries over 1% right now, it might take months before those kind of numbers are posted.

If you don't like the numbers I'm using, feel free to ignore them.
 
I'm pretty sure, that we've already discussed how influenza is affected by behavioural changes in the seasons rather than the seasons themselves.

(i.e. crowding people into hot, wet environments)
 
What are the summer/winter seasons in Singapore? Indonesia? Brazil?

Does the flu have a seasonality in places close to the equator?

Hasn't this just been discussed?

Infuenza has a more or less constant level of cases, year round, near the equator with a couple of minor bumps.

The minor bumps are associated with seasonal variation in human behaviour, like tourist season, or religious festivals.
 
Something I've been meaning to post - Bill Gates.

This bloke is a living legend. He's seen that the big problem for vaccines will be getting them produced when we find one, so he's going ahead and building facilities to produce seven potential vaccines so he can throw away the ones not needed and provide the world with the right one immediately.

Legend.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...accines-to-fight-coronavirus-2020-4?r=US&IR=T
 
That is awesome! I do have some serious doubts that he'd be wasting the money on the others, pretty sure they could build more things
 
Out of curiosity, and for a moment setting aside all my doubts about the pandemic as a whole, do you know why they don't take into account the very real possibility that the whole thing screeches to a halt as summer arrives, the way flu tends to?
Who is the "they"?

Surely places have very real, significant differences with regard to the incidence of flu, by season?

Also, how do you know that "they don't take into account the very real possibility that the whole thing screeches to a halt as summer arrives"?
 
Thanks.

Hasn't this just been discussed?

Infuenza has a more or less constant level of cases, year round, near the equator with a couple of minor bumps.

The minor bumps are associated with seasonal variation in human behaviour, like tourist season, or religious festivals.
It may have been discussed already, but I must have missed it (my MO is to post links to previous discussions, if I know they exist).

My bad. :(

Back to Doghouse Reilly's claims/arguments/whatever: if covid-19 has a seasonality similar to that of the flu, then places like Indonesia can look to no respite at all.
 
There's a bit of promising research being explored here in Australia.

An existing drug, already approved for human use, that appears to interfere with the virus's mechanism for slowing down the immune response within a cell. (I'm being deliberately vague here)

Please do not post the name of this drug in this forum or anywhere else.

Dosage is very important and the appropriate dosage has not been determined.

This drug is already effective in treating a number of other viruses.
 
Out of curiosity, and for a moment setting aside all my doubts about the pandemic as a whole, do you know why they don't take into account the very real possibility that the whole thing screeches to a halt as summer arrives, the way flu tends to?

I expect a couple of reasons to assign low probability to seasonability at the moment:

1. no noticeable effect of longitude - equatorial and southern hemisphere countries seem to have similar propagation.

2. it's not like the flu genetically, more like a cold (colds are coronoviruses), which has moderate seasonality at best (eg: summer colds are a real thing)
 
What are the summer/winter seasons in Singapore? Indonesia? Brazil?

Does the flu have a seasonality in places close to the equator?

The tropics have seasonality to the flu indirectly, though contact with other regions.

Not so much colds, though (which is a closer comparison).
 
You can tell something about whether there is enough testing by looking at the percentage of tests that return a "hit". For example Norway has a 5% success rate in this regard. (102k tested, 5200 found positive.) But people are only being tested if there is some reason to think that they may be positive, so the real proportion of the population that is infected is likely lower then 5%.
You mean higher?
It is known that some of those with COVID-19 can be asymptomatic. If a country is only testing people with symptoms, the likelihood is that the number of people actually with the coronavirus is more than those that have been tested.
Also, there is the question of test accuracy. It is known that tests can produce false-negatives. So even within the tested population there is the possibility of undiagnosed infected.
 
You're misunderstanding my intent. I'm not trying to argue from authority, but how should I, as a layman, understand which authorities should be believed and which should not, especially when my own observations already match what they're saying?

Especially when considering that the sheer volume of those who disagree with me is just another form of argument from authority.

So, this is IMO a critically important skill for skeptics that we have neglected organizationally for various reasons. To the point where I walked away from organized skepticism, as I am convinced that until we get closer consensus on how to evaluate expert claims, we have nothing to offer the public. I wrote about it for years, posted on this forum and its JREF predecessor, but it's never achieved much. I sort of moved on.

Specifically, the evaluation of expert claims is usually evaluating a scientific claim (although of course there are other domains of expertise that come up). This is sadly exactly where skeptics fall down the hardest. We're ****** at it.

When an argument with a fallacy backs up our opponent, we mock them. When an argument with a fallacy backs us up, we pretend we didn't notice the philosophical problem. It's bad critical thinking, bad practice, internally inconsistent, muddled thinking, and disastrous when exercised in an attempt at public education.

The core problem is confusion about whether Argument from Authority is such a knock down fallacy that it has to be dismissed a priori, or is the argument still somehow salvageable under certain circumstances?


:: analogy ::
Just as a comparison... we have a fallacy that describes observing something in a small group and just jumping ahead and saying it will apply to everybody: Fallacy of CompositionWP.

Can we always dismiss these claims outright? Well, no, there are circumstances where it's actually a good argument. Some of them are called 'clinical trials'.

Some fallacies are not *terrible* arguments, if specific circumstances are met, such as in this example, controlled randomization and representative sampling.




:: back to claims on expert topics ::

Officially, if you take more advanced courses in critical thinking beyond the 101 level... the 101 is a good start and fallacies are a core topic in the syllabus, so I'm not knocking it. But it's sort of like when we get that guy here who took grade 10 physics and is arguing with a PhD about the speed of light. The fallacy people are sort of the new guy and ideally appreciate there's more to learn, but not all do, and it's a problem I don't know how to address.

Evaluating expertise has some criteria that soften the blow of Argument from Authority. To the point where there's a push to rename the fallacy "Argument from Questionable Authority".

Among other criteria, critical analysts are asked to consider:
* is the claimant an expert in the field in question
* is the claimant regarded as a current expert by his peers
* is there any sort of consensus on this topic within the field yet
* is the claimant aligned with this consensus
* does the claimant have a strong conflict of interest


The critical analyst would have to weigh and compare the mixed results in order to assign a degree of confidence toward the claim being true.

This is not a complete list, but it hits what I've seen in most critical thinking / logic textbooks that deal with medical ethics, expert decisionmaking, and laypersons' strategies for making sense of claims that are out of our scope of expertise.



:: internal consistency ::

Here's where the internal consistency breaks down... there's skeptics who say, nah, we need to do our own research, ignore the white tower eggheads, just bone up on the subject ourselves, no authority involved.

So that's quite the project if we can't discriminate among claimants. We need to treat Jim Carrey and Jenny McCarthy, or Dr. Wakefield, Aunt Mildred, and four hundred thousand Google hits the same as a peer reviewed study in the NEJM. That's a lot of reading. It's also going to be a lot of misinformation.

My opinion is that it just shoves the Authority around.
* Anybody citing a paper from, say, JAMA or NEJM or Lancet is assigning that journal as an authority.
* Anybody digging deeper and doing their own study in their own lab is assigning previous researchers whose (untested by themselves) assumptions they treat as baseline as an authority
* And the manufacturers of the equipment
* And the people who calibrate and maintain the equipment
* And their elementary, highschool, and university instructors who taught them the background assumptions they've never independently validated, oh, and the authors of all those textbooks with formulas and values for constants and so on.

My proposal is that shifting to thinking in terms of Argument from Questionable Authority as being the fallacy restores internal consistency about how we are assigning truth value to all the pieces we bring to the table when evaluating a claim. Textbooks have been wrong, but they're probably not. NEJM has been wrong, but it's probably not. Dr. X could be wrong, but based on the criteria, he's probably not.
 
You mean higher?
It is known that some of those with COVID-19 can be asymptomatic. If a country is only testing people with symptoms, the likelihood is that the number of people actually with the coronavirus is more than those that have been tested.
Also, there is the question of test accuracy. It is known that tests can produce false-negatives. So even within the tested population there is the possibility of undiagnosed infected.

No, I did mean lower. Tests are done on people who have been in contact with infected people and on those showing symptoms. I'm sure you can see that the percentage of infected people in such a group should be higher than in a group without those specifics. I'm not saying that there are no infected among the not-tested population; only that the percentage of infected in the general population is less than 5%.
 
No, I did mean lower. Tests are done on people who have been in contact with infected people and on those showing symptoms. I'm sure you can see that the percentage of infected people in such a group should be higher than in a group without those specifics. I'm not saying that there are no infected among the not-tested population; only that the percentage of infected in the general population is less than 5%.
Perhaps where you are.
But this is not an universal condition for testing, e.g., in Australia only people showing symptoms are tested.

So you and I are not talking about the same oranges.

As to your “only 5% infected” - I don’t think there is a credible medical expert or modeller out there that thinks any country has Less than 5% infections. It much more likely that over 50% of any Western countries population is, or will be infected.

5% seems to be a massive underestimation of COCID-19 infections anywhere.
 
This drug is already effective in treating a number of other viruses.

Well, it's already in mass media, so I see no reason not to post it here - it's not like people are going to rush out and buy it because it gets mentioned at ISF.

I'm guessing you mean Invermectin: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-04/mu-pcd040320.php

Also worth noting Aussie being highly proactive in allowing hydroxychloroquine, Remdesivir and others immediate approval: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...nment-waives-regulatory-requirements-for-drug

Under out joint licensing regulations that should fast-track it here as well.
 
Perhaps where you are.
But this is not an universal condition for testing, e.g., in Australia only people showing symptoms are tested.

So you and I are not talking about the same oranges.

As to your “only 5% infected” - I don’t think there is a credible medical expert or modeller out there that thinks any country has Less than 5% infections. It much more likely that over 50% of any Western countries population is, or will be infected.

5% seems to be a massive underestimation of COCID-19 infections anywhere.

In this paper they have used a model to assess number of infected based on number of current deaths. They themselves point out that the infected to death ratio is unknown. Please read the comments various experts make towards the end of the article. I cherry-picked one: “This is interesting work, but is hampered by the same issues that impacts on all epidemiological models – they rely on assumptions that at the moment are based on only a paucity of scientific fact about how thus virus transmits."
 
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