Cont: 2019-nCoV / Corona virus Pt 3

[ServiceSoon]

Coronavirus social distancing limit is at least four times too short because infectious droplets can fly much further than current 6 foot (2 metre) restriction, study warns


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...cing-EIGHT-metres-avoid-coronavirus-risk.html

As far as I am aware, the six foot distance guideline was arbitrary. Thanks for bringing empirical data into this discussion. It makes sense that the best environment to study this topic would be in the hospital setting.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

As far as I am aware, the six foot distance guideline was arbitrary. Thanks for bringing empirical data into this discussion. It makes sense that the best environment to study this topic would be in the hospital setting.

It seems like one of those sitaluations where eliminating the risk requires a model of behavior very awkwardly far from familiar and likely in many circumstances unable to be achieved that it was felt significantly reducing the risk was a better way to go and more likely to actually happen.

 

[eeyore1954]

I put on some washing today.

And just to make sure it worked properly I stood and watched it and sang “Happy Birthday” 240 times.

You would need a lot of candles for the cakes.

 

[angrysoba]

Looks like time to repost study:
Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks: Would They Protect in an Influenza Pandemic?
(It is freely available!)

Thank you for reposting that.

I am finding it weirder and weirder that some people have been making the argument against face masks, unless it is to point out that there is a shortage and that these masks are necessary for medical workers.

Given that they are necessary for medical workers, it is clear that:

1) They are not useless! Or they wouldn't be ******* given to medical workers, would they?

and

2) if there is a shortage, then one area in which production could be transferred (instead of merely talking about ventilators) is to make more masks!

This study examined homemade masks as an alternative to commercial face masks. Several household materials were evaluated for the capacity to block bacterial and viral aerosols. Twenty-one healthy volunteers made their own face masks from cotton t-shirts; the masks were then tested for fit. The number of microorganisms isolated from coughs of healthy volunteers wearing their homemade mask, a surgical mask, or no mask was compared using several air-sampling techniques. The median-fit factor of the homemade masks was one-half that of the surgical masks. Both masks significantly reduced the number of microorganisms expelled by volunteers, although the surgical mask was 3 times more effective in blocking transmission than the homemade mask. Our findings suggest that a homemade mask should only be considered as a last resort to prevent droplet transmission from infected individuals, but it would be better than no protection.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I think the problem with masks is that it doesn't make a huge difference compared to, say, hand washing, not touching your face, stay at home as much as possible and keeping your distance from others when out in public. People may get a false sense of security from wearing a mask and engage in the really effective measures less.

There is also the problem that putting a face mask on and off will bring your (possibly coronavirus-covered) hand(s) close to your face and touch the mask.

 

[Marcus]

Thank you for reposting that.

I am finding it weirder and weirder that some people have been making the argument against face masks, unless it is to point out that there is a shortage and that these masks are necessary for medical workers.

Given that they are necessary for medical workers, it is clear that:

1) They are not useless! Or they wouldn't be ******* given to medical workers, would they?

and

2) if there is a shortage, then one area in which production could be transferred (instead of merely talking about ventilators) is to make more masks!

Honeywell, 3M, Rocket and New Balance are ramping up production of face masks. Not sure if this will be enough to meet demand , but I'm pretty sure enough industrial assets will be brought to bear on the problem before too long.

 

[Dr.Sid]

I think the problem with masks is that it doesn't make a huge difference compared to, say, hand washing, not touching your face, stay at home as much as possible and keeping your distance from others when out in public. People may get a false sense of security from wearing a mask and engage in the really effective measures less.

There is also the problem that putting a face mask on and off will bring your (possibly coronavirus-covered) hand(s) close to your face and touch the mask.

Nonsense. It's just another countermeasure. Wash your hands. Don't touch your face. AND wear mask in public. Every word you say spreads droplets. Not even talking about sneezing and coughing.

Only real issue with masks is there is usually not enough. Here people simply started to make them at home. Even bandana or scarf is better than nothing.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Nonsense. It's just another countermeasure. Wash your hands. Don't touch your face. AND wear mask in public. Every word you say spreads droplets. Not even talking about sneezing and coughing.

Only real issue with masks is there is usually not enough. Here people simply started to make them at home. Even bandana or scarf is better than nothing.

What part of my post was "nonsense"?

If you feel better wearing a mask, knock yourself out. Just don't forget it's the (small) cherry on the top of behaviour that reduces the spread of infection compared to the others I described.

 

[angrysoba]

I think the problem with masks is that it doesn't make a huge difference compared to, say, hand washing, not touching your face, stay at home as much as possible and keeping your distance from others when out in public. People may get a false sense of security from wearing a mask and engage in the really effective measures less.

There is also the problem that putting a face mask on and off will bring your (possibly coronavirus-covered) hand(s) close to your face and touch the mask.

No doubt wearing a mask is not sufficient to prevent transmission. No me thing is, even isolation as you still need food sent in somehow. But as with washing hands or keeping a distance or wiping down fomites, it is ONE extra thing that could REDUCE transmission and works best when encourage with the correct education about how to use them. Telling people NOT to wear them and saying they are useless is the wrong message.

 

[angrysoba]

Honeywell, 3M, Rocket and New Balance are ramping up production of face masks. Not sure if this will be enough to meet demand , but I'm pretty sure enough industrial assets will be brought to bear on the problem before too long.

Good!

 

[casebro]

No doubt wearing a mask is not sufficient to prevent transmission. No me thing is, even isolation as you still need food sent in somehow. But as with washing hands or keeping a distance or wiping down fomites, it is ONE extra thing that could REDUCE transmission and works best when encourage with the correct education about how to use them. Telling people NOT to wear them and saying they are useless is the wrong message.

It's all about flattening the curve. Which is an admission that sooner or later we are ALL going to be exposed. Except MAYBE for the slim possibility that some of us can stay cloistered for the year or so that it will take for a vaccine to become available.

Meantime, the initial wave of illness and death will be among the highest risk individuals, and those few with high susceptibility for unknown reasons. (Genetics? Previous immunity for we-don't-know-why) Actual long term death rate will be less than 1%.

Summation of my own out look- long term effect of controlling controllable risk factors, nil. Shorter term of controlling which part of the curve you fall into, peak or more gentle, damn near useless to any individual. YMMV, but not much.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

No doubt wearing a mask is not sufficient to prevent transmission. No me thing is, even isolation as you still need food sent in somehow. But as with washing hands or keeping a distance or wiping down fomites, it is ONE extra thing that could REDUCE transmission and works best when encourage with the correct education about how to use them. Telling people NOT to wear them and saying they are useless is the wrong message.

When people thought they couldn't wipe their asses with toilet paper look what happened.

I would rather the people who have to work for hours each day in an environment where a high concentration of the virus is present to have a plentiful supply of masks and other PPE, than the worried well exercising outside and shopping once a week in a store where everyone is 2m apart.

This is not based on some high-ideal, but self-interest: if I or one of my loved ones get very ill I want as many doctors and nurses available to be able to treat us.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Are the US numbers dependable?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nidhiprakash/coronavirus-update-dead-covid19-doctors-hospitals

Doctors and nurses working in several hospitals around the country, who spoke with BuzzFeed News on the condition of not being named out of fear of repercussions, said that the official counts of COVID-19 related deaths are not comprehensive for three main reasons: a lack of tests and protective equipment means not everyone who contracted or dies of COVID-19 is diagnosed; overwhelmed hospitals may be running behind on reporting the numbers to state and county authorities; and some hospitals reporting their totals on a daily basis say they’re not being reflected promptly in county and state reports.

 

[angrysoba]

When people thought they couldn't wipe their asses with toilet paper look what happened.

I would rather the people who have to work for hours each day in an environment where a high concentration of the virus is present to have a plentiful supply of masks and other PPE, than the worried well exercising outside and shopping once a week in a store where everyone is 2m apart.

This is not based on some high-ideal, but self-interest: if I or one of my loved ones get very ill I want as many doctors and nurses available to be able to treat us.

Which is why I said production should have been increased as it was throughout much of Asia and where mask wearing is often expected if not obligatory in many social settings.

 

[Mader Levap]

No country has dependable numbers.

Every gov, be it authoritarian, democratic or between, has big incentive in undercounting COVID-19 cases and assigning COVID-19 deaths to something different (like that "that wasn't COVID-19, that patient was totally done in by already existing disease" BS).

 

[casebro]

I've tried googling < Life Care Center in Kirkland covid "staff mortalities"> but failed to find any number. The staff was a good cross section of umm 120 Americans, not the high risk patients, and not frat boys playing beer pong with other people's spittle. And their exposure started a month ago. So a good cohort of what the outcomes might be for the rest of us.

Anybody's google-fu better then mine? (I assume so...)

 

[angrysoba]

Besides, masks and other equipment that are needed for medical staff shouldn’t be sold in the bloody shops.

It has been pointed out that where such things are unavailable people can still try to cover their faces with scarves or handmade masks. These are less effective than other masks but it is truly idiotic to argue that nobody should wear any face covering whatsoever.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Which is why I said production should have been increased as it was throughout much of Asia and where mask wearing is often expected if not obligatory in many social settings.

1 mask a day per person = 10's of billions of masks manufactured a week.

 

[Dr.Sid]

1 mask a day per person = 10's of billions of masks manufactured a week.

Somehow here everybody has to wear mask. They can't be bought anywhere. So nobody is taking them from health personel. Yet everyone has one. Because people can make their own masks. It's just a piece of cloth and 2 strings. And everybody has bandana or scarf at home.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Besides, masks and other equipment that are needed for medical staff shouldn’t be sold in the bloody shops.

It has been pointed out that where such things are unavailable people can still try to cover their faces with scarves or handmade masks. These are less effective than other masks but it is truly idiotic to argue that nobody should wear any face covering whatsoever.

My girlfriend and I wore my backpacking balaclavas into the grocery store. They're somewhat thick fleece. We looked silly, and I enjoyed the amusement factor. But if COIVD-19 is primarily spread by respiratory droplets, I can't imagine how a droplet wouldn't have a tougher time getting through the fleece than nothing at all.

There have been some high profile experts saying that the masks don't work, but I can't really imagine how that is the case. They should at least reduce the possibility of getting infected, ceterus paribus.

I also think of the disgusting sensation I've experienced a few times of being in a train or other public place when someone sneezes and actually feeling a droplet land on your face. Eww. But a mask seems like it would catch that.