The World After Coronavirus

I don't think the moving of preteen pocket change from coins to debit/credit cards is going to cause some sort of mass mugging uptick.

On a related note anyone who's in the... I dunno about "25 and under" or so demographic is already going way more comfortable with a phone app then either cash or debit/credit card and they already have phones with passwords on them so there's a net gain/loss in security.
 
William Parcher said:
When criminals rob children they get all the cash in the pocket. But when they rob the child of a debit card they get all the cash in the account. This is because ATMs give out cash and the debit card will be used at an ATM by the criminal.
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Not in a cashless society, although they could use it for contactless transactions until the card is reported stolen.

The bigger worry, I'd have thought, would be online scams and scam apps, similar to the problems with microtransactions in games.
 
JoeMorgue said:
On a related note anyone who's in the... I dunno about "25 and under" or so demographic is already going way more comfortable with a phone app then either cash or debit/credit card and they already have phones with passwords on them so there's a net gain/loss in security.
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Yeah, I think that things like Apple Pay will eventually make cards obsolete, but the timescale for that is longer.

It's already available on phones and watches, can be used in shops, can be used to transfer money between people directly, and can be used to pay for transport. It's more secure, too, because to use the watch you need a PIN (so this would be the equivalent of the suggestion of stealing someone's cards and extracting the PIN from them, rather than just being able to use contactless), and on the phone it requires face ID, so nobody who steals the device will be able to use it at all. Or, at least, it requires some serious know-how and effort, so a mugger is unlikely to be able to use it to buy a packet of fags. It took the FBI 5 days to get into the iPhone of one of Trump's cohorts (I forget which one off the top of my head), so I suspect that muggers would likely take longer.

But it still all seems rather novel for many, and I don't see it being adopted as a standard any time soon.

Cards, however, are something that even the elderly are familiar and comfortable with. They may prefer cash, but almost everybody would be able to cope. So I think that a move to a card-based society is credible in the relatively short-term.
 
One thing that occurred to me re the move to a cashless economy is that it might hasten the move away from multiple currencies. If/when the UK rejoins the EU, for example, I doubt there will be the same degree of resistance to switching to the Euro if it's all just numbers on a screen by then.
 
Pixel42 said:
One thing that occurred to me re the move to a cashless economy is that it might hasten the move away from multiple currencies. If/when the UK rejoins the EU, for example, I doubt there will be the same degree of resistance to switching to the Euro if it's all just numbers on a screen by then.
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That's very true. I could even see us keeping the pound sign, and the words "pound", "pence", and "quid". It wouldn't matter if the currency had been merged because, as you say, it's just characters on a screen.

I wonder if words like "fiver" and "tenner" would go out the window, though. Mind you, a "pony" is £25 and a "monkey" is £500, so perhaps it doesn't have to relate to physical money, although that slang is nowhere near as common.
 
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Here's what we need.

Coins- All would be Zinc based to save on cost. Both the nickel and penny we currently used are literally not worth their own weight in metal cost which is stupid. They would also be sized via their value so the dime wouldn't be smaller than the nickel.

Penny - (Not kept in circulation. Approved design with molds and perhaps a small ready stock pile kept on hand to issue in case of deflation. A few a year minted for collectors/keepsakes maybe)
Nickel
Dime
Quarter
Half Dollar
Dollar
Five Dollar (Not in circulation, approved design, molds, and small stock of kept on standby for issuing in case of inflation. Again maybe a few issued each year for collectors)

Bills - Polymer based, different sized for sight impaired people, modern security features.

1 Dollar (Not kept in general circulation, again maybe small runs every few years for the collector's market.)
5 Dollars
10 Dollars
20 or 25 Dollars (I've waffled back and forth on which one makes more sense)
50 Dollars
100 Dollars
Higher denominations not kept in circulation but again approved designs, plates and a small stock ready for issue might be kept on hand.

Bullion: Silver, Gold, and Platinum coins (I'd go with Silver Eagles, Gold Buffalos, and Platinum Lady Liberties but that's just me) in various sizes.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
As I said above, debit cards are a lot more likely than credit cards. As it is, under 18s cannot have credit cards but can have debit cards. I see no reason for this to be changed if cash were to be eliminated.
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William Parcher said:
You are not thinking.

When criminals rob children they get all the cash in the pocket. But when they rob the child of a debit card they get all the cash in the account. This is because ATMs give out cash and the debit card will be used at an ATM by the criminal.
Click to expand...



What you need, and we already have the technology for, is a cash card that isn't tied to your personal accounts. Where I live, we already have this for using the bus. You buy a card, and load funds onto it, however much you think you'll need for a week, or a month, or whatever. When you get on the bus, you tap the card, and it deducts the cost of a ride.

Just expand that system so you can use such a card to tap for any purchase. If the card gets stolen or lost, you lose only the value stored on the card, no different from having your wallet cleaned out. Provide ATM-like machines to load funds everywhere, as well as online sites to do the same. Parents could load the funds for the kids, and the kids would be two steps removed from the process, so their only vulnerability would be the card itself, just like cash.

Make these ubiquitous enough, and make the basic cards free, and it could be used to replace lots, if not all, cash purchases.
 
Horatius said:
What you need, and we already have the technology for, is a cash card that isn't tied to your personal accounts. Where I live, we already have this for using the bus. You buy a card, and load funds onto it, however much you think you'll need for a week, or a month, or whatever. When you get on the bus, you tap the card, and it deducts the cost of a ride.

Just expand that system so you can use such a card to tap for any purchase.
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That's what I meant when I said that there would be an account that parents could set up regular money transfers for, and/or deposit money in to.

I suppose they could also be customised in certain ways - enable them to be set up so that only a certain amount of money can be withdrawn at any particular time and/or within a certain time period, for example.

Provide ATM-like machines to load funds everywhere, as well as online sites to do the same.
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I don't think you'd even need many of the former. And I'm not sure that it's likely to materialise, anyway, given that actual cash machines are disappearing.

Have the latter and a mobile app.
 
Have any of you lot actually got kids?

Mine have been using debit cards for years. If I give my kids a $5 note they don't know what to do with it.

The use of debit cards among children is very well established and while I'm sure there have been cases of kids getting fleeced, it's not something I've ever heard of, either anecdotally or in the media.
 
Just looking at my small world and changes I predict.

Business and social networking will no longer be commonplace. There are no good online platforms for real-time introductory face to face meetings that allow for the sort of freestyle groups to form and dissolve of the sort that I attend 3-4 nights a week. Presumably this is a technology opportunity for some smart developer.

The casino industry will retract considerably.

Ride sharing services will be challenged, and with it that portion of the gig economy.

Boardgaming as a hobby will take a serious hit. :-( There has been such expansion in the market over the past few years that it will retract now. After viruses and phobias die down it will come back.
 
The Atheist said:
Have any of you lot actually got kids?

Mine have been using debit cards for years. If I give my kids a $5 note they don't know what to do with it.

The use of debit cards among children is very well established and while I'm sure there have been cases of kids getting fleeced, it's not something I've ever heard of, either anecdotally or in the media.
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It’s cards or their phone over here. I’ve mentioned before that I’ve recently ended up working somewhere with a lot of kids (under 25 year olds) and I’ve had conversations about how they don’t use cash, they see no value in having cash in their wallets, it’s card or phone. If they want to lend someone a fiver it’s done via their phone.
 
Venom said:
The world after COVID-19.

There will probably always be new coronaviruses popping up from the local mammalian wildlife.
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Hopefully this might be a wake up call to fund the resources you need for the next one.
In the UK the amount of ventilators in hospitals are going to increase dramatically because of this, I dont see the government being able to roll it back after this crisis is over, but who knows.
 
angrysoba said:
Sure they will. Just as they love it when they all carry cash.

ETA: Although, to be fair, criminals love it much more when children carry cash, as it is easier to buy drugs with cash.
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Actually it's almost easier to buy drugs with bitcoin than with cash. I wouldn't know where to go or who to talk to to buy drugs with cash. But that's probably different for a lot of people.
 
The Atheist said:
Have any of you lot actually got kids?

Mine have been using debit cards for years. If I give my kids a $5 note they don't know what to do with it.

The use of debit cards among children is very well established and while I'm sure there have been cases of kids getting fleeced, it's not something I've ever heard of, either anecdotally or in the media.
Click to expand...
I mentioned earlier that going cashless further disadvantages the already disadvantaged. To have a debit card you need to have a bank account. And to have that you need to have both a home address and some money to put into the account. There are a lot of people in the world who don't have even that. Some provision is going to need to be made for them.
 
William Parcher said:
You are not thinking.

When criminals rob children they get all the cash in the pocket. But when they rob the child of a debit card they get all the cash in the account. This is because ATMs give out cash and the debit card will be used at an ATM by the criminal.

The criminal robs the child of two things. The debit card and the PIN. The reason that they will love it is because it's easier and safer to rob children rather than adults or even teenagers.
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No, silly. You just use a card which can be charged up. A couple of quid on a card is all the criminal would get. Or you have a daily limit.

You don’t give a child access to all their money at once!

You are not thinking.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Here's what we need.

Coins- All would be Zinc based to save on cost. Both the nickel and penny we currently used are literally not worth their own weight in metal cost which is stupid. They would also be sized via their value so the dime wouldn't be smaller than the nickel.

Penny - (Not kept in circulation. Approved design with molds and perhaps a small ready stock pile kept on hand to issue in case of deflation. A few a year minted for collectors/keepsakes maybe)
Nickel
Dime
Quarter
Half Dollar
Dollar
Five Dollar (Not in circulation, approved design, molds, and small stock of kept on standby for issuing in case of inflation. Again maybe a few issued each year for collectors)

Bills - Polymer based, different sized for sight impaired people, modern security features.

1 Dollar (Not kept in general circulation, again maybe small runs every few years for the collector's market.)
5 Dollars
10 Dollars
20 or 25 Dollars (I've waffled back and forth on which one makes more sense)
50 Dollars
100 Dollars
Higher denominations not kept in circulation but again approved designs, plates and a small stock ready for issue might be kept on hand.

Bullion: Silver, Gold, and Platinum coins (I'd go with Silver Eagles, Gold Buffalos, and Platinum Lady Liberties but that's just me) in various sizes.
Click to expand...

This is mostly what the situation is in Canada right now. No pennies. No half dollar. 2 dollar coin not a 5. No 1 dollar note. $20 note not $25. The bullion coins you can get at the Royal Canadian Mint.
 
arthwollipot said:
I mentioned earlier that going cashless further disadvantages the already disadvantaged.
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I didn't say anything about the morality of it - I was stating what's happening.

As it happens, I agree with you, so please read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote next time.
 
arthwollipot said:
I mentioned earlier that going cashless further disadvantages the already disadvantaged. To have a debit card you need to have a bank account. And to have that you need to have both a home address and some money to put into the account. There are a lot of people in the world who don't have even that. Some provision is going to need to be made for them.
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Benefits can be paid directly to a card so no need for a bank account.
 
Darat said:
Benefits can be paid directly to a card so no need for a bank account.
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I think the lines would blur, things like housing would need to be charged to it (we've discussed elsewhere the combining of housing benefit with UC and the potential pitfalls of this) leading to preapproved regular payments on the card, and if the card is empty when a payment is due, will there be charges? What will be the priorities when money is added? There will need to be a centralised account somewhere for the incoming payment and so that a lost card can be replaced. It would be a bank ccount in all but name.
 
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