2019-nCoV / Corona virus Pt 2

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A couple points re: filtration:

Medical filtration is a subset of industrial filtration- what do you think filters the whole air system in the hospitals?

IF this epidemic gets to be as bad as the doom sayers predict, we will need all the help we can get.

There are MILLIIONs of women out there with tens of millions of sewing machines.

What would it take? Somebody in the know would need to make a design. It could be more labor intensive, but heck, the labor is free. Would it be 95% effective? Maybe not, but 95% ain't perfect either. Would it be covered by liability insurance? A law would need to be put in place. But hey, it a war.

Factories have women employees making filter masks.

Why can't those at-home women make them too?

I read those studies up-thread, or others. One layer of T shirt is 50% effective. One layer of kitchen tea towel, 65%,and gets to 68% after 3 hours(I assume because of dampening from condensed respiration). How good would say three layers of coffee filters quilted together be? Two days in the right lab would do it.

10,000,000 Coughy Masks coming right up!
 
What hope for a vaccine?

As far as I can tell no vaccine had ever been created for the other two major coronaviruses, MERS and SARS.

Two questions;
A. Why not?
2. Why are we confident a vaccine will be developed for COVID-19? Especially since all research seems to be based on the (unsuccessful) work on the other two?
 
EHocking said:
As far as I can tell no vaccine had ever been created for the other two major coronaviruses, MERS and SARS.
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There was, for SARS, but it never got to being licenced because SARS died out before then.

There was a cite for that, but pretty hard to see it now we have SARS 2.0.

EHocking said:
2. Why are we confident a vaccine will be developed for COVID-19? Especially since all research seems to be based on the (unsuccessful) work on the other two?
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Apparently, the SARS 1.0 vaccine did appear to be a success.

And within a fortnight we'll know more about potential treatments.
 
Kirby Micro Magic HEPA Filtration - "Certified HEPA Filtration - Removes 99.97% of household dust, pollen, mites and other particles down to 0.3 microns and 99.5% down to 0.1 microns."

Yup. Vacuum cleaner bags. Got a sewing machine?
 
EHocking said:
As far as I can tell no vaccine had ever been created for the other two major coronaviruses, MERS and SARS.

Two questions;
A. Why not?
2. Why are we confident a vaccine will be developed for COVID-19? Especially since all research seems to be based on the (unsuccessful) work on the other two?
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IIRC, world wide, less than 1000 cases each. That's why.
 
casebro said:
Kirby Micro Magic HEPA Filtration - "Certified HEPA Filtration - Removes 99.97% of household dust, pollen, mites and other particles down to 0.3 microns and 99.5% down to 0.1 microns."

Yup. Vacuum cleaner bags. Got a sewing machine?
Click to expand...

That's actually not a bad point at all.
 
casebro said:
A couple points re: filtration:

Medical filtration is a subset of industrial filtration- what do you think filters the whole air system in the hospitals?

IF this epidemic gets to be as bad as the doom sayers predict, we will need all the help we can get.

There are MILLIIONs of women out there with tens of millions of sewing machines.

What would it take? Somebody in the know would need to make a design. It could be more labor intensive, but heck, the labor is free. Would it be 95% effective? Maybe not, but 95% ain't perfect either. Would it be covered by liability insurance? A law would need to be put in place. But hey, it a war.

Factories have women employees making filter masks.

Why can't those at-home women make them too?

I read those studies up-thread, or others. One layer of T shirt is 50% effective. One layer of kitchen tea towel, 65%,and gets to 68% after 3 hours(I assume because of dampening from condensed respiration). How good would say three layers of coffee filters quilted together be? Two days in the right lab would do it.

10,000,000 Coughy Masks coming right up!
Click to expand...

A hospital in Oklahoma requested such masks from sewers across the country and supplied a link to a pattern. I have been sewing since yesterday, but I had a very difficult time locating the 1/4” elastic required. Everywhere is out of it. I finally found some on Etsy, but who knows how long that will take to get here.

They apparently want to use them for people who are not coming into direct contact with infected patients, but rather those who are a degree away from infection but want some kind of protection. They are hoping the existence of such masks will allow the N95s for the front line workers.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
If you're in HK, no wonder you see the faults of the Chinese government as huge. From where I stand it was a minor delay compared to the government here in the US. And it was a fraction of the time it took China to recognize SARS 1.
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I see them as huge not because I am in Hong Kong per se, but because the faults were demonstrably huge, as all my points have shown. A willful and intentional government wide cover up, lying to the world, and a badly managed final lockdown.

Do you assume that everyone in HK hates the Chinese government? Are you aware that both pro-government and pro-democracy officials here have criticised their response? Are you aware that there has been unprecedented criticism of the Chinese governments response from Chinese citizens themselves, given unusual leeway to proceed before it was cracked down on and censored?

1.5 months is indeed a fraction of the 3 months it took China to accept SARS, but hardly a small fraction. Its an improvement I suppose, but it shows once again they haven't learned the lessons.

Once again, and for the final time, I am not comparing with the US, I agree the US response has been poor. You keep saying this as if it refutes my points, but it is irrelevant to them and not the argument I am making.

It is not a zero sum game where for China to appear bad, the US response has to be good. The US response has been terrible. The Chinese response was terrible.

It is wrong and unnecessary to minimize the awfulness of the Chinese response in order to point out how bad the US response has been.
 
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GraculusTheGreenBird said:
Once again, and for the final time, I am not comparing with the US, I agree the US response has been poor. You keep saying this as if it refutes my points, but it is irrelevant to them and not the argument I am making.

It is not a zero sum game where for China to appear bad, the US response has to be good. The US response has been terrible. The Chinese response was terrible.

It is wrong and unnecessary to minimize the awfulness of the Chinese response in order to point out how bad the US response has been.
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Kings Full said:
It is impossible to separate your political views from your "scientific" views. The two are intertwined and science takes a back seat. No reasonable person can read what you say and have confidence that your opinion is based on science and not emotion.
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Boom!
 
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EHocking said:
As far as I can tell no vaccine had ever been created for the other two major coronaviruses, MERS and SARS.

Two questions;
A. Why not?
2. Why are we confident a vaccine will be developed for COVID-19? Especially since all research seems to be based on the (unsuccessful) work on the other two?
Click to expand...

MERS has never broken out in numbers that warranted vaccine research. And there was vaccine research ongoing about SARS but it was halted when the disease was.

Some complained vaccine research was halted, some didn't want to spend the money.
 
A convergence of the effect of Covid-19 on financial markets and on toilet paper changes the meaning of the old expression, “That stock certificate isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.” The paper it is printed on may become quite valuable.
 
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casebro said:
Kirby Micro Magic HEPA Filtration - "Certified HEPA Filtration - Removes 99.97% of household dust, pollen, mites and other particles down to 0.3 microns and 99.5% down to 0.1 microns."

Yup. Vacuum cleaner bags. Got a sewing machine?
Click to expand...
Not so fast:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_the_Efficacy_of_Homemade_Masks_Would_They_Protect_in_an_Influenza_Pandemic said:
The surgical mask had the highest
filtration efficiency when challenged with bacteriophage
MS2, followed by the vacuum cleaner bag, but the bag’s stiffness and thickness created a high pressure drop across the material, rendering it unsuitable for a face mask. Similarly,
the tea towel, which is a strong fabric with a thick
weave, showed relatively high filtration efficiency with both
B atrophaeus and bacteriophage MS2, but a high pressure
drop was also measured.
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This part does not sound encouraging to me:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_the_Efficacy_of_Homemade_Masks_W ould_They_Protect_in_an_Influenza_Pandemic said:
Although the droplet sizes for both virus and bacteria were
the same and affected the filter media in a similar manner, it was suggested that the viruses, after contact with the moisture on the filter, were released from their droplet containment, and driven onward by the flow of gas.
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ETA: I believe Skeptic Ginger already mentioned this yesterday (at least I think it was yesterday?)
 
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Thanks to you guys, I now have the ears of some of the local government. What should I tell them? I have shown them videos of how other places have run into shortages of masks, general PPE and ventilators. I have given them several epidemic graphs as well as links to experts.

They are now ready to take some serious quarantine measures and also some travel stoppage.

They realize that they will have to decide who lives and who dies if it gets bad enough ,but I could use other, specific links or at least the names of people they can ask. They cannot ask our local department of health as it was a political appointment to a non expert. The local hospitals don't necessarily know for sure but are being asked
 
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