Biden for President?

[d4m10n]

Biden doesn't want more. He said he'd veto medicare for all as president. The center is this strange pseudo national, pseudo market coverage known as the ACA, and Biden seems very much in support of that and hostile to anything more.

It seems likely you skimmed over the bit of my post about the public option. Here is some more info about it:
https://www.vox.com/2019/7/16/20694598/joe-biden-health-care-plan-public-option

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It seems likely you may've skimmed over the bit of my post about the public option. Here is some more info about it:
https://www.vox.com/2019/7/16/20694598/joe-biden-health-care-plan-public-option

Biden's own plan admits that this will leave some 3% uninsured.

It's a centrist plan because Biden would rather leave 3% uninsured than threaten the parasitic insurance industry.

Pretty bleak since his public option ACA plan will be blocked by the same people that will block Medicare for all, but it doesn't even aspire for universal coverage.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This need by many Sanders supporters to continue this nonsense mystifies me. I'm still seeing claims that Biden has mental problems/dementia. The fact is that Biden is more than likely going to be the Dem nominee. Yet they seem to be more than willing to cut off their noses to spite their face. They're like children who threaten to take their ball and go home if they can't win the game.

Be sure to tell the people dying from lack of healthcare they are being petty for not toeing the party line.

There are people in this country in situations where "pretty good" isn't good enough. I'm sorry their desperation is inconvenient to the Democratic party.

 

[d4m10n]

It's a centrist plan because Biden would rather leave 3% uninsured than threaten the parasitic insurance industry.

Anything short of our goal of 0% uninsured is the political center? That doesn't strike me as thinking on a political spectrum at all. Again, you forget to factor in what the right wing is actually hoping to implement (perhaps understandably, since they failed to cohere on a legislative consensus when they had the power to do so).

You said "Biden seems very much in support of [ACA] and hostile to anything more" but if you skimmed the Vox article you must see that he is campaigning on something significantly more, even if it falls short of perfection.

You also said, oddly enough, that the center on healthcare in the U.S. "is this strange pseudo national, pseudo market coverage known as the ACA" which cannot be squared with your earlier assertion that "right wingers continually push on rightward and constantly redefine the center." It makes no sense to say the ACA was the result of a push to the right, much less by the GOP.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Anything short of our goal of 0% uninsured is the political center? That doesn't strike me as thinking on a political spectrum at all. Again, you forget to factor in what the right wing is actually hoping to implement (perhaps understandably, since they failed to cohere on a legislative consensus when they had the power to do so).

You said "Biden seems very much in support of [ACA] and hostile to anything more" but if you skimmed the article you must see that he is campaigning on something significantly more, even if it falls short of perfection.

You also said, oddly enough, that the center on healthcare in the U.S. "is this strange pseudo national, pseudo market coverage known as the ACA" which cannot be squared with your earlier assertion that "right wingers continually push on rightward and constantly redefine the center." It makes no sense to say the ACA was the result of a push to the right, much less by the GOP.

It's a centrist policy because it tries to accommodate the insurance providers at the expense of its own goals. This is exactly the kind of effete fence sitting that centrists are scorned for.

The ACA was a heritage foundation plan that allowed for the continued existence of private health insurance even as it becomes increasingly clear that it is an inefficient system. It's literally the product of a right wing think tank. The fact that right wing cranks disavowed it decades later shows how effective they have been in making the supposed left wing defend their old positions while they push further and further right.

Their resistance to the ACA is exactly how they pull the rug out from under centrists. They bait centrists into proposing something center right, then sabotage it and pull it even further to the right.

 

[d4m10n]

The ACA was a heritage foundation plan that allowed for the continued existence of private health insurance even as it becomes increasingly clear that it is an inefficient system.

Anything short of abolishing private health insurance is centrist. Are you hearing yourself?

They bait centrists into proposing something center right, then sabotage it and pull it even further to the right.

Broadly expanding Medicaid was a center right proposal?

The original public option was a center right proposal?

I don't know about you, but I expect people on the right not to push to move things to the left, pretty much of the time, for any given status quo.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

That fact that someone like Biden is best candidate the Democratic Party can produce just shows how horrible the American system is. Boomers and Gen. X'ers are well on their way to screwing over the younger generation.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Broadly expanding Medicaid was a center right proposal?

The original public option was a center right proposal?

I don't know about you, but I expect people on the right not to push to move things to the left, pretty much of the time, for any given status quo.

The public option couldn't even survive within the Democratic party. The "moderates" killed it before the Republicans could even have an opportunity to piss on it. Funny how the moderates seem to get their way when it comes to calls for "party unity".

Anything short of abolishing private health insurance is centrist. Are you hearing yourself?

Of course, is this controversial? Maybe you prefer centrist policies, but call them what they are. Privatizing necessary public services that every citizen uses is a right wing idea. Carving out a special niche from the larger social system for health insurance profiteers is a distinctly centrist ideology.

 

[Stacyhs]

No, I meant his general comments. The debate was offered as proof that he isn't doddering old man. I accept that he seemed mentally coherent throughout.

Sorry if that wasn't clear. How do you explain Biden saying he was arrested visiting Mandela? That's absurd. More importantly, how do you explain his laughable lie about not actually supporting the invasion of Iraq when he voted to authorize the invasion in Iraq?

Before I might have suggested that is mind is slipping. Now it seems more likely that he was just lying and thought he would get away with it for some reason. Absolutely baffling.

I don't defend Biden's claims on either. They weren't true. Look, I've never claimed that Biden hasn't lied. I've never tried to paint Biden as perfect. He isn't. My point of contention has always been the claim that Biden is mentally ill/has dementia being spread largely by Sanders supporters.


Neither Sanders nor Biden are paragons of total honesty. Sanders has his fair share of lies/misleading statements, too.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=bernie-sanders

 

[d4m10n]

The public option couldn't even survive within the Democratic party.

I'm well aware, but again, you said that it was an example of "centrists...proposing something center right" and that's just ridiculous.

Lieberman could be said to have dragged the final ACA towards the center-right when he gutted this provision, but the bill wasn't originally proposed as such.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

The public option couldn't even survive within the Democratic party. The "moderates" killed it before the Republicans could even have an opportunity to piss on it. Funny how the moderates seem to get their way when it comes to calls for "party unity".

Ah yes, I recall the "let's have our opening offer already contain compromises" plan.

 

[d4m10n]

Boomers and Gen. X'ers are well on their to screwing over the younger generation.

To be fair, Biden is Silent Generation. Which is weird, because he's rather talkative.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm well aware, but again, you said that it was an example of "centrists...proposing something center right" and that's just ridiculous.

Lieberman could be said to have dragged the final ACA towards the center-right when he gutted this provision, but the bill wasn't originally proposed as such.

Ok, for the femtosecond that it was an idea, it was pretty good. The Democrats killed it in the cradle.

 

[Delvo]

Biden's whole spiel is that he's "electable" in the general. hope that wasn't all total crap.

It was never anywhere near true from the start.

Trump could still find a way to blow it, though. And that would be bad, in the long run, because a Biden win would be taken as a clear signal by the ruling Republican wing of the Democrat party that they can continue to kick down and spit on the rest of their own party and still count on our votes anyway through fear-mongering.

That fact that someone like Biden is best candidate the Democratic Party can produce just shows how horrible the American system is.

He's not. He's pretty much the worst. They can accuse all they want about Bernie Bros supposedly handing Trump the next term, but they're the ones who saw to it that the only "Democrat" alternative to Bernie would be the worst candidate for a general election they could find.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I don't defend Biden's claims on either. They weren't true. Look, I've never claimed that Biden hasn't lied. I've never tried to paint Biden as perfect. He isn't. My point of contention has always been the claim that Biden is mentally ill/has dementia being spread largely by Sanders supporters.

Lately, yes.

Because he's the most opposed figure (within the framework of the primary).

In totality? No.

6 months ago? Lots of high and middle profile figures were.

Disclaimer: not on board with "confirmed dementia" yet have concerns about his clarity.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

He's not. He's pretty much the worst. They can accuse all they want about Bernie Bros supposedly handing Trump the next term, but they're the ones who saw to it that the only "Democrat" alternative to Bernie would be the worst candidate for a general election they could find.

Some tankie Bernie Bro in Michigan is going to vote PSL and that's going to be proof that Bernie was a spoiler. If Biden loses this thing, they'll do everything they can to avoid introspection. Pant-suit zombies still trying to hang 2016 around Bernie's neck.

 

[d4m10n]

Maybe you prefer centrist policies, but call them what they are. Privatizing necessary public services that every citizen uses is a right wing idea. Carving out a special niche from the larger social system for health insurance profiteers is a distinctly centrist ideology.

Just as a sanity check here, has Congress ever considered passing anything other than (what you'd label) centrist healthcare reforms?

Ok, for the femtosecond that it was an idea, it was pretty good. The Democrats killed it in the cradle.

Lieberman is just one Democrat, but he was the sixtieth.

 

[theprestige]

Ah yes, I recall the "let's have our opening offer already contain compromises" plan.

Your opening offer needs to at least be within the Overton Window of what the people you're trying to cooperate with are willing to consider.

If you need to compromise your principles too much, just to get into that window, then you have bigger problems.

And, after repeatedly being told "that's a non-starter; try again", there's no reason to keep leading with the non-starters.

Even American progressives are, by and large, pretty conservative. Most registered Democrats aren't actually revolutionaries by any stretch.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Just as a sanity check here, has Congress ever considered passing anything other than (what you'd label) centrist healthcare reforms?



Lieberman is just one Democrat.

Truman's 1949 "Fair Deal" plan for universal health care paid by taxes. The AMA killed it by smearing it as socialism.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Your opening offer needs to at least be within the Overton Window of what the people you're trying to cooperate with are willing to consider.

If you need to compromise your principles too much, just to get into that window, then you have bigger problems.

And, after repeatedly being told "that's a non-starter; try again", there's no reason to keep leading with the non-starters.

Even American progressives are, by and large, pretty conservative. Most registered Democrats aren't actually revolutionaries by any stretch.

How does the Overton window shift? How come only Republicans are good at it?