Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 19

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All Prosecutors defer to the court.

No, they don't. That's the whole point of submitting a recommendation.

But when Jeff Sessions took over the DoJ, he issued a guideline that Prosecutors should always charge defendants with everything they can get a conviction for and that the goal was to get maximum sentences.
The original Prosecutors were following this guideline.

That's not at all what the Sessions guidelines said. Here they are for reference:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/965896/download

Regarding charging:

First, it is a core principle that prosecutors should charge and pursue the most serious, readily provable offense.​

So no, they don't have to charge everything, but they shouldn't generally charge a lesser offense rather than a greater offense if they can prove the greater offense. And the policy does allow for exceptions.

Regarding sentencing:

Second, prosecutors must disclose to the sentencing court all facts that impact the sentencing guidelines or mandatory minimum sentences, and should in all cases seek a reasonable sentence under the factors in 18 U.S.C. § 3553.​

Not the maximum possible sentence, a reasonable sentence.

The Judge can do what he/she wants, but if they deviate significantly from the recommendation, they have to give a written justification why.

You're saying that normally the judge has to justify not deferring to the prosecution, even though earlier you said the prosecution defers to the judge. You're not even consistent.
 
How could Kerry and Murphy be violating the Act when they are Senators on relevant committees?
 
Trump Tweets

“I don’t think there’s any chance whatsoever of Senator Sanders defeating President Trump.” Mini Mike Bloomberg. Mini, there’s even less chance, especially after watching your debate performance last night, of you winning the Democrat nomination...But I hope you do!

“The real winner last night was Donald Trump.” Mini Mike Bloomberg. I agree!

“The decision not to prosecute Andy McCabe is utterly inexplicable.”
@Judgenap @HARRISFAULKNER
@FoxNews
 
When has the DOJ been free from political influence?

Never, but it's a case of degrees.Trump is trying to turn it into a weapon for attacking his political foes to a degree far greater then any other President.. If you don't get why that is dangerous, you are either ignorant or a hopeless partisan.
 
Never, but it's a case of degrees.Trump is trying to turn it into a weapon for attacking his political foes to a degree far greater then any other President.. If you don't get why that is dangerous, you are either ignorant or a hopeless partisan.

I am neither ignorant or a hopeless partisan.

ETA: I may be ignorant of when Trump has used the DOJ as a political weapon to attack his foes to a degree far greater then any other president. That doesn’t seem to be the case with Roger Stone. The DOJ tried and got a conviction on his ally.
 
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Trump is now on TV saying that the Stone jury was anti-Trump.

Trump's gotten the whole "You can't listen anything bad said about me because it comes from people who are against me" established well enough it's now transitive.
 
They didn't defer to the court in their initial recommendation.

The judge has sole discretion in the sentencing. The DOJ knew that at the time of their initial recommendation. They didn't need to say they would defer to the court as it is not within their power not to defer.


Because it was too harsh.
That is your opinion, not a fact. The fact is that the original sentence recommendation was based on federal guidelines.

Yes, it's unusual. Doesn't mean that they aren't just partisan hacks, which would explain why the sentence recommendation was excessive in the first place.

I really did laugh when I read that. So now all 2000+ former DOJ employees are "partisan hacks", are they? All 2000+ are Democrats? The four prosecutors who resigned are all 'partisan hacks'? You're channeling your inner Trump there.


That hinges on whether they're lying about the timeline. If they made the decision before Trump's tweet, as they said they did, then it logically cannot have been in response to the tweet, because time travel isn't a thing.

Trump tweeted well before the DOJ issued their statement:

In a 1:48 am tweet Tuesday, President Donald Trump decried federal prosecutors’ recommendation that a judge sentence Trump’s longtime political adviser Roger Stone to seven to nine years in prison. Less than 16 hours later, the Justice Department announced in a new court filing that the sentence it had previously recommended would be “considered excessive and unwarranted under the circumstances.” Meanwhile, four prosecutors who had worked on the Stone case withdrew from it.
https://www.motherjones.com/politic...r-sentence-for-roger-stone-after-trump-tweet/


The DOJ spokesperson claims the decision was made before the 1:48 tweet but would give no specifics.

How did Trump know what the sentencing recommendation was at 1:48 AM Tues. when the prosecutors only sent it to the DOJ at 6:07 PM on Monday? Obviously he was informed by someone almost immediately. Why? Because Trump had a personal interest in the case as the DOJ well knew. What other reason would there be to inform Trump of the sentencing recommendations?

Whether or not the tweet was the deciding factor for the DOJ's almost unheard of action, you cannot deny that they weren't well aware of Trump's previous very vocal defense of Stone.
 
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This isn't about whether the judge agreed with Trump on the sentencing or not. It's about Trump interfering in active court cases and about the DOJ allowing him to do so. It's about the DOJ being free from political influence.

When has the DOJ been free from political influence?

Let me get this straight: you're implying that since the DOJ hasn't always succeeded in being free from political influence, that political influence on it is acceptable? :jaw-dropp
 
The thing about Trump Supporters is that they equate "legal to do" with "Right to do".
No one is denying he has the constitutional right to pardon Stone, question is it the right thing to do.
 
The judge has sole discretion in the sentencing. The DOJ knew that at the time of their initial recommendation. They didn't need to say they would defer to the court as it is not within their power not to defer.

No. If the prosecution recommends something and the judge goes against that recommendation, the fact that the judge's decision carries the day doesn't mean that the prosecution deferred to the judge.

That is your opinion, not a fact. The fact is that the original sentence recommendation was based on federal guidelines.

Guidelines don't apply themselves. Nor should they ever be used blindly.

I really did laugh when I read that. So now all 2000+ former DOJ employees are "partisan hacks", are they? All 2000+ are Democrats?

I'm not sure why it would surprise you that a letter organized by a partisan left group might collect signatures from partisan leftists. Are they all partisan leftists? Maybe not. Are they mostly partisan leftists? Well, duh. Don't believe me? Look up their political donations.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/02/1...om-leftist-hacks-pretending-to-be-bipartisan/

Trump tweeted well before the DOJ issued their statement:

I said nothing about when they made their statement. I referenced when they say they made their decision, which would obviously have been before they made their statement. If they made their decision before Trump tweeted (and they say they did), then obviously they didn't do it in response to Trump. You are claiming that they are lying. That's possible, but do you have any evidence to support that assertion?

How did Trump know what the sentencing recommendation was at 1:48 AM Tues. when the prosecutors only sent it to the DOJ at 6:07 PM on Monday? Obviously he was informed by someone almost immediately. Why? Because Trump had a personal interest in the case as the DOJ well knew. What other reason would there be to inform Trump of the sentencing recommendations?

The initial sentence recommendation hit a lot of mainstream news outlets on that Monday, many within an hour.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/10/us/roger-stone-prison-sentence.html
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/prosecutors-stone-prison-sentence-recommendation
https://thehill.com/regulation/cour...o-sentence-roger-stone-to-7-9-years-in-prison
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...est-7-to-9-year-sentence-for-roger-stone.html
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/02/roger-stone-prosecutors-sentence-nine-years/
The sentence recommendation wasn't a secret, there are countless ways Trump could have found out. That he found out tells us basically nothing.

Whether or not the tweet was the deciding factor for the DOJ's almost unheard of action, you cannot deny that they weren't well aware of Trump's previous very vocal defense of Stone.

That's quite the goalpost move. But are you really sure you want that to be its new location? After all, Obama was vocal in his support for Hillary, and I'm sure Comey knew that too. Is that really the standard we're going to go by? That presidents can't voice opinions about people the DOJ might investigate/charge?
 
When they quit the case in protest to me that indicated there was a good likelihood they were partisan.

Wow. In Trumplandia, who isn'ta partisan hack? The FBI, Mueller, the whistleblower, Judge Jackson, the jury foreman, and now the 4 Stone prosecutors and the 2000+ former DOJ employees who signed the protest letter are all partisan hacks or biased against Trump.

When I get overruled at work by my superior even when I am sure I am right I don't remove myself from the project. I do argue my case though.


The prosecutors did argue their case when they presented their initial recommendation to the DOJ. It was Timothy Shea, a political appointee of Barr, who issued the DOJ objection.

In late January, Barr appointed Shea, who previously served as Barr’s counselor, to be the interim U.S. attorney in D.C. at an especially sensitive time for the office. It was Shea who signed the revised sentencing recommendation that urged the court to give a lighter sentence to Roger Stone.

I highly doubt that anything that happens at your job has the same national significance that this incident does.
 
Wow. In Trumplandia, who isn'ta partisan hack? The FBI, Mueller, the whistleblower, Judge Jackson, the jury foreman, and now the 4 Stone prosecutors and the 2000+ former DOJ employees who signed the protest letter are all partisan hacks or biased against Trump.




The prosecutors did argue their case when they presented their initial recommendation to the DOJ. It was Timothy Shea, a political appointee of Barr, who issued the DOJ objection.



I highly doubt that anything that happens at your job has the same national significance that this incident does.
Only in my mind do my work decisions carry a great degree of national significance.
 
Trump Tweets

Could somebody at @foxnews please explain to Trump hater A.B. Stoddard (zero talent!) and @TeamCavuto, that I won every one of my debates, from beginning to end. Check the polls taken immediately after the debates. The debates got me elected. Must be Fox Board Member Paul Ryan!
 
"a magnificent amount, a massive amount of water"

He really is incapable of doing anything without cartoonish hyperbole, isn't he?

"I had an absolutely phenomenal piece of toast with my breakfast. The greatest breakfast."
"Perfect"
Also, keep in mind that as Ambassador he caused a bit of a problem when he made statements that were seen as interfering in European politics (generally seen as a no-no for a diplomat).

From: https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...-grenell-is-isolated-in-berlin-a-1247610.html
On the day he took up his post, he tweeted that "German companies doing business in Iran should wind down operations immediately." ...Four weeks later in Breitbart...Grenell essentially called for regime change. "I absolutely want to empower other conservatives throughout Europe," he said.
...
...in Berlin, he has largely become isolated. The powerful avoid him. ...Few politicians...want to be seen with him.
...
DER SPIEGEL focused its reporting on conversations with more than 30 sources who have come into contact with Grenell...A majority of them describe Grenell as a vain, narcissistic person who dishes out aggressively, but can barely handle criticism....They also say Grenell knows little about Germany and Europe, that he ignores most of the dossiers his colleagues at the embassy write for him, and that his knowledge of the subject matter is superficial


So not only does he not have the experience to handle a posting with National Intelligence, he is also largely a failure in his roll as ambassador.
He's a "Perfect" Trump appointee.
We know its less than what the original sentencing request was (i.e. 7 to 9 years). Do we know what the updated, Barr-influenced sentence request was?

I would have preferred it to be a longer sentence. And supposedly he still hasn't been detained while various appeals and/or trial requests work their way out (which is also frustrating).

Still... 40 months isn't too bad (as long as he doesn't get released on parole too early). That's over 3 years; at his age, its a decent amount of time (relative to how much longer he'd be living).

He's also getting a couple years of probation after he gets out. Do you think Stone is capable of behaving himself on probation? I don't.
 
Let me get this straight: you're implying that since the DOJ hasn't always succeeded in being free from political influence, that political influence on it is acceptable? :jaw-dropp
I don't know how you'd go about eliminating political influence when the AG is appointed by the president and serves as a member of the cabinet. Does it make sense to deem something unacceptable when it's inevitable?

There is a case for having strong institutions, which function consistently from one administration to the next. But IMO, expecting complete freedom from political influence is unrealistic and maybe even undesirable. I'd have to think about it.
 
Let me get this straight: you're implying that since the DOJ hasn't always succeeded in being free from political influence, that political influence on it is acceptable? :jaw-dropp

Are you new here?

"X system can never be done to 100% philosophical purity, therefore not only are the corrupt justified, they are somehow more noble then the people trying to stop the corruption" has been one of their half dozen go to arguments for a while now.
 
No. If the prosecution recommends something and the judge goes against that recommendation, the fact that the judge's decision carries the day doesn't mean that the prosecution deferred to the judge.

I never said the prosecution defers to the judge. I said:

The judge has sole discretion in the sentencing. The DOJ knew that at the time of their initial recommendation. They didn't need to say they would defer to the court as it is not within their power not to defer.

However, the prosecutors submit a sentencing recommendation. Notice that word. It is up to the judge to decide on the sentence. Therefore, the DOJ had no power to affect what sentence Jackson would impose...and they knew that.


Guidelines don't apply themselves. Nor should they ever be used blindly.

Did I say either? No. I said, in response to your allegation that 7-9 years was excessive,:
That is your opinion, not a fact. The fact is that the original sentence recommendation was based on federal guidelines

Judges are not required to follow guidelines, but use them to help determine the sentence.


I'm not sure why it would surprise you that a letter organized by a partisan left group might collect signatures from partisan leftists. Are they all partisan leftists? Maybe not. Are they mostly partisan leftists? Well, duh. Don't believe me? Look up their political donations.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/02/1...om-leftist-hacks-pretending-to-be-bipartisan/

The Federalist. Why am I not surprised. I suspect this is where you got this whole ‘partisan hack’ bit. Let’s take a look at their ‘proof’ the signatories are ‘partisan hacks’:

The list comparing those who signed the Barr letter and the Mueller Report totaled 24. Out of over 2,000. I’m not claiming there weren’t more, but their ‘proof’ that they are ‘partisan hacks’ is sadly lacking. Nor am denying that there are probably more Democrats than Republicans who signed the Barr letter; there likely are. Today’s GOP is certainly less concerned with Trump’s behavior as evidenced by the inability of many Trump supporters in this very forum and in the government to criticize anything he does.

The author of this article is Margo Cleveland, a far right activist, goes on to show that a handful of signatories donated to Democrats/ Democratic causes. Wow. What a shock! What she does not show are the Republicans who signed the letter.

She hardly produced the “ overwhelming evidence that the thousand-plus signatories were politically motivated critics of President Donald Trump.




I said nothing about when they made their statement. I referenced when they say they made their decision, which would obviously have been before they made their statement. If they made their decision before Trump tweeted (and they say they did), then obviously they didn't do it in response to Trump. You are claiming that they are lying. That's possible, but do you have any evidence to support that assertion?


I'll concede this point to you. Trump found out on Monday. But the DOJ announcement wasn't until Tuesday...after the tweet.



That's quite the goalpost move. But are you really sure you want that to be its new location? After all, Obama was vocal in his support for Hillary, and I'm sure Comey knew that too. Is that really the standard we're going to go by? That presidents can't voice opinions about people the DOJ might investigate/charge?
[/QUOTE]

Speaking of goalpost moves...had Hillary been arrested or indicted for any crime? No. Was she put on trial? No. On the other hand, Trump commented on the Stone trial both before, and during, Stone's trial. That is the difference you don't seem to recognize.
 
Trump Tweets

Could somebody at @foxnews please explain to Trump hater A.B. Stoddard (zero talent!) and @TeamCavuto, that I won every one of my debates, from beginning to end. Check the polls taken immediately after the debates.
People have....

From: https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/27/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-debate-poll/index.html
Hillary Clinton was deemed the winner of Monday night's debate by 62% of voters who tuned in to watch, while just 27% said they thought Donald Trump had the better night, according to a CNN/ORC Poll of voters who watched the debate.

From: https://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/clinton-trump-debate-poll-229581
Clinton's win in the second debate was decisive. Forty-two percent of those polled said Clinton won the Sunday night contest — including 13 percent of Republicans. Just 28 percent said Trump won the debate, held at Washington University in St. Louis.

I guess not everyone is enamored by a lumbering oaf who sniffs more than a cocaine addict in search of his next fix.
 
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