Cont: Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3

xjx388 said:
I’m more than willing to admit when I’ve made an error. I can’t see it. Can you spell it out?
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:sdl:

Here, I'll spell it out for you. Professional judgement is just that, professional judgement. What you described would never be professional judgement.
 
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Let's be real clear here. Here is the question I asked:

In your view, are ethical codes something professionals can choose to follow or not? Can they cherry pick which rules are gold standard rules and which are not absolute?

SkepticGinger answered, "Yes, it's called professional judgement."

Clearly, SG thinks that professionals can cherry pick which rules are gold standard and which are not absolute by exercising professional judgement.

My scenario is obviously an exercise in bad professional judgement and it's one that happens in the real world all the time. Therefore, "professional judgement," is not a very good tool to use in selecting which ethical rules should apply and which should not.

Where am I wrong?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
:sdl:

Here, I'll spell it out for you. Professional judgement is just that, professional judgement. What you described would never be professional judgement.
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You are accusing me of bad logic and that's what you come back with?

That's a circular definition of "professional judgement" and it points out the fatal flaw in your argument. To further illustrate this point: Professional judgement is just that, professional judgement. What the Yale Group is doing would never be professional judgement.

Is that convincing? I didn't think so.

So what is "professional judgement?" and then tell me why the "sex with a patient" scenario isn't a case of using it but the actions of the Yale Group is.
 
xjx388 said:
Let's be real clear here. Here is the question I asked:

In your view, are ethical codes something professionals can choose to follow or not? Can they cherry pick which rules are gold standard rules and which are not absolute?

SkepticGinger answered, "Yes, it's called professional judgement."

Clearly, SG thinks that professionals can cherry pick which rules are gold standard and which are not absolute by exercising professional judgement.

My scenario is obviously an exercise in bad professional judgement and it's one that happens in the real world all the time. Therefore, "professional judgement," is not a very good tool to use in selecting which ethical rules should apply and which should not.

Where am I wrong?
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One of these (highlighted) things is not like the other.

You figure it out.
 
BTW, can you imagine physicians and other medical practitioners that were so anal they wouldn't override some written guideline that should not be applied?
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
One of these (highlighted) things is not like the other.



You figure it out.
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Your argument here is that if a doctor decides to sleep with a patient that decision has nothing to do with professional judgement.

There is a professional relationship between the two. The decision to have an intimate relationship in that context is a perfect example of poor professional judgement. How can you say that it isn’t?

I mean, you can continue to handwave away my arguments here, but I’d really like to see you defend it.
 
xjx388 said:
Your argument here is that if a doctor decides to sleep with a patient that decision has nothing to do with professional judgement.

There is a professional relationship between the two. The decision to have an intimate relationship in that context is a perfect example of poor professional judgement. How can you say that it isn’t?

I mean, you can continue to handwave away my arguments here, but I’d really like to see you defend it.
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Really? You're going to keep going around and around with this bull **** pretending we should exchange actual professional judgement with some rules you found on the Internet lest we be so incompetent we think professional judgement is a license to to do anything? Do you not understand what you are saying?

Do you believe they teach following the APA's positions in lieu of professional judgement in med school? Really? :rolleyes:
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Really? You're going to keep going around and around with this bull **** pretending we should exchange actual professional judgement with some rules you found on the Internet lest we be so incompetent we think professional judgement is a license to to do anything? Do you not understand what you are saying?
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You keep dismissing the ethical code as just some rules I found on the internet. Do you not think that that the ethical code is an important part of professional judgement?
Do you believe they teach following the APA's positions in lieu of professional judgement in med school? Really? :rolleyes:
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Do you think they tell students and residents, "Ethics? That's just some rules on the internet. Ignore them and use your professional judgement, instead."
 
Even our beloved but obviously insane Lord President knows that "judgment" is properly spelled with only one E. Granted he scribbles the word in crayon or his own waste, and doesn't know what it means, but still.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Isn't that what you've given us? You seem to be demonstrating an "understanding" that is based solely on a couple cherry picked paragraphs.
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This is a preposterous accusation.

I have linked to the pdf containing the entire Code of Ethics. I've also linked to the APAs various position pieces that came out in the wake of this. You are free to peruse them at your leisure and tell me what I've misunderstood. I think you will find that the APA's position on this is crystal clear and their arguments sound.

So please tell me, you, SG, anybody . . . how does professional judgement override those sound arguments?
 
TragicMonkey said:
Even our beloved but obviously insane Lord President knows that "judgment" is properly spelled with only one E. Granted he scribbles the word in crayon or his own waste, and doesn't know what it means, but still.
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I have used my professional judgement (as a trained reader and writer with experience of over 47 years) and decided that spelling rules are just something you found on the internet and I can ignore them.
 
xjx388 said:
I have used my professional judgement (as a trained reader and writer with experience of over 47 years) and decided that spelling rules are just something you found on the internet and I can ignore them.
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That's a clear example of #3415 on the official "Doctor Science's Is You Crazy? Diagnostic Tool". Per the guidelines that means you is mentally crazy, and I must urge you not to be a president.
 
xjx388 said:
This is a preposterous accusation.

I have linked to the pdf containing the entire Code of Ethics. I've also linked to the APAs various position pieces that came out in the wake of this. You are free to peruse them at your leisure and tell me what I've misunderstood. I think you will find that the APA's position on this is crystal clear and their arguments sound.

So please tell me, you, SG, anybody . . . how does professional judgement override those sound arguments?
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If their arguments are so sound and "absolute" as you tried to claim earlier can you explain why other professional organizations have explicitly chosen not to adopt this particular one? Similarly, why has it not been codified in to law as some jurisdictions have done with your sex example?
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
If their arguments are so sound and "absolute" as you tried to claim earlier can you explain why other professional organizations have explicitly chosen not to adopt this particular one? Similarly, why has it not been codified in to law as some jurisdictions have done with your sex example?
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Which professional organizations are those? The American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association are the two biggest professional organizations in control of the mental health profession. The American Psychoanalytic Association has been misconstrued as saying that their members don't have to follow the Goldwater Rule, but that's not what they said (covered extensively in the thread before). So which organizations were those?

Now, I guess you could argue that: Dr. X chooses not to be a member of any professional; therefore, no ethics rules apply to Dr. X. But that seems like a really bad argument. I believe medical ethics is an inextricable part of medical practice that exists independent of membership in a group.

Ethics is independent of law. Sex with a patient is both unethical and a violation of board rules. Not every ethical violation should be a violation of board rules. The absence of a law or board rule about something doesn't render that something ethical.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Even our beloved but obviously insane Lord President knows that "judgment" is properly spelled with only one E. Granted he scribbles the word in crayon or his own waste, and doesn't know what it means, but still.
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Wars have been fought over less.
 
xjx388 said:
You keep dismissing the ethical code as just some rules I found on the internet. Do you not think that that the ethical code is an important part of professional judgement?
Do you think they tell students and residents, "Ethics? That's just some rules on the internet. Ignore them and use your professional judgement, instead."
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You clearly cannot defend your position so you make up a straw man, all or none, to do battle with. You are arguing everyone should anally follow these 'rules' lest they have nothing upon which to base their ethical judgement.

That's a bizarre point of view. What if there is something for which no organization position paper exists?

What if there are two such position papers and they don't agree?

It's like you picture medical providers running around saying, "Oh no, what do I do, what do I do?"

It's mind boggling to me that you could actually believe that. So I don't think you do believe that. You are trying to justify the position you've taken and it takes a straw man to do that.
 
xjx388 said:
...

So please tell me, you, SG, anybody . . . how does professional judgement override those sound arguments?
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It's easy. Take the case of Trump as an example. More than a few highly credentialed professionals have described in detail why they felt the need to override the arguments you seem to think should be burned into one's soul.

Ethics: The Goldwater Rule had to be overridden here given the threat they believe Trump poses.

And if you are still arguing for that in-person exam, you are dismissing the professional judgement of thousands of professionals that can see it would add nothing in this case and Trump's pathologic NPD is blatantly obvious.
 
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