2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III

[Venom]

It is amusing. You're whining. Stop. If you want to tell us something about your candidate, by all means, go for it. But we're not really interested in "why is everybody picking on me".

You wanna know what's even more amusing? My reply is whining but pages 30-40 of posters bashing Bernie supporters for....supporting Bernie isn't.

If you call my posts whining, have a better response than "people are entitled to their opinions", then maybe I'll take your nonsense replies seriously. It's a discussion forum, after all.

 

[Minoosh]

Does Bernie get the concept of the perfect being the enemy of the good? For example, if he is eventually the nominee/president, and there's a reasonable chance to make health care better, would he stand his ground on single-payer UHC with private insurance outlawed? Can he be part of a coalition working to make things better incrementally, or would he reject such changes?

 

[plague311]

Does Bernie get the concept of the perfect being the enemy of the good? For example, if he is eventually the nominee/president, and there's a reasonable chance to make health care better, would he stand his ground on single-payer UHC with private insurance outlawed? Can he be part of a coalition working to make things better incrementally, or would he reject such changes?

From what I've seen about Bernie he appears to be at least reasonable. I think politicians take hard stances but I could see Bernie having some give and take. I also think he'd see the overall bonus of having private insurance and it really wouldn't even be that big of a give to make. Other countries have the same setup, if that's all he's got to give up it would seem like a victory for sure.

 

[Segnosaur]

You wanna know what's even more amusing? My reply is whining but pages 30-40 of posters bashing Bernie supporters for....supporting Bernie isn't.

Keep in mind that for some of us, we aren't necessarily condemning all supporters.

Some of us do have some concerns though:

- The relatively high number of "BernieBros" who fall into the "bernie or bust" category (especially compared to the supporters of other candidates, like Warren or Biden). Granted, that probably doesn't apply to anyone here, but they do exist.

- I believe that valid concerns have been raised about the potential viability of Sanders as a candidate (studies that showed extreme candidates statistically do poorer than moderates, polls showing the unpopularity of parts of Sanders' health care plan). Unfortunately the concerns are brushed off, dismissed with a hand wave, or addressed by using irrelevant data.

 

[Venom]

Does Bernie get the concept of the perfect being the enemy of the good? For example, if he is eventually the nominee/president, and there's a reasonable chance to make health care better, would he stand his ground on single-payer UHC with private insurance outlawed? Can he be part of a coalition working to make things better incrementally, or would he reject such changes?

It is an interesting question. Sanders has had a pragmatic approach throughout his career. He never dug his heels in when it came time to vote on the ACA for a recent example. He seemed comfortable pushing for big change on the pulpit but always voted to advance his agenda even incrementally. I always bring this up to the BernieorBust crowd.

I think he would be stricter as president, maybe standing his ground on his single-payer Medicare For All and negotiating on lower priorities.

 

[plague311]

Dubious. He'll spend the money no matter what they say about him. His focus right now is countering Trump messaging. He's softening the ground for all the Democrats. Something I wish some Dem super-PAC was already doing. He's functioning kind of like a one-man PAC.

Minoosh, why must you wish political advertising on us earlier than already? LoL. I hate the political ad season and we don't see as much of it up here.

 

[Segnosaur]

From what I've seen about Bernie he appears to be at least reasonable. I think politicians take hard stances but I could see Bernie having some give and take. I also think he'd see the overall bonus of having private insurance and it really wouldn't even be that big of a give to make.

Really?

The whole 'medicare-for-all/outlaw private insurance' is an extremely unpopular position to take. (Most people want to see improved coverage, even a 'medicare for all', but still want private options.)

If wanting private options is something he would see as a 'bonus', then why not adopt before he gets involved in the primaries, instead of during the election when he will have to defend a particular unpopular plan? It would be so easy.... "Universal coverage! If you you can pay for your own but you don't have to". Makes almost everyone happy... those who want universal coverage, those who want to maintain some personal control....

 

[Venom]

Keep in mind that for some of us, we aren't necessarily condemning all supporters.

Some of us do have some concerns though:

- The relatively high number of "BernieBros" who fall into the "bernie or bust" category (especially compared to the supporters of other candidates, like Warren or Biden). Granted, that probably doesn't apply to anyone here, but they do exist.

- I believe that valid concerns have been raised about the potential viability of Sanders as a candidate (studies that showed extreme candidates statistically do poorer than moderates, polls showing the unpopularity of parts of Sanders' health care plan). Unfortunately the concerns are brushed off, dismissed with a hand wave, or addressed by using irrelevant data.

All valid and I've followed those discussion here.

I do think his promise to "tax the rich" and his strong stances against endless war and reforming healthcare tend to offset the socialist label thrown his way and questions people have about the extent to which he plans to push that reform.

 

[Elagabalus]

The current state of the Democratic party shows the Will Rogers joke made in the 1920's is more relevelent then ever:

'I don't belong to an organized political party. I am a Democrat".

What do mean current state? It's always been like that.*


*as Will Roger's joke (from the 1920's) proves.

 

[Segnosaur]

All valid and I've followed those discussion here.

I do think his promise to "tax the rich"

I think all of the candidates have promised to reverse at least some provisions of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Even 'moderates' like Bloomberg and Biden.

and his strong stances against endless war

None of the other candidates seem particularly 'hawkish' to me.

and reforming healthcare tend to offset the socialist label thrown his way and questions people have about the extent to which he plans to push that reform.

And once again, his idea of 'healthcare reform' is to pick a plan which

1) is extremely unpopular. (Yes, people want better health care, even universal coverage, BUT THEY WANT PRIVATE INSURANCE OPTIONS TOO!!!!!!!) Got it? So please, quit trying to tell me "Oh people want universal coverage so they will vote for Sander's plan". Because Sanders plan does MORE than just give universal coverage. You see, that's one of the problems I have with Sanders supporters... they falsely equate Sanders plan with Universal coverage, when the 2 of them are not the same thing.

2) Has significant problems in the one country that is actually doing it that way.

If Sanders makes it past the primaries, he will have to go to millions of middle class suburban voters, many of whom are actually quite happy with their medical coverage, and tell them "I'm taking away something you personally like, to replace it with a system that gives long waiting lists". Doesn't sound like a very good way to make inroads with a demographic the Democrats will probably need to win.

 

[Elagabalus]

...If Sanders makes it past the primaries, he will have to go to millions of middle class suburban voters, many of whom are actually quite happy with their medical coverage, and tell them "I'm taking away something you personally like, to replace it with a system that gives long waiting lists". Doesn't sound like a very good way to make inroads with a demographic the Democrats will probably need to win.

Ah, you see in this post Trump world, Bernie says a lot of things but will he actually be able to do it?

Also, I doubt that Bernie would spin it the way you have suggested.

 

[acbytesla]

You wanna know what's even more amusing? My reply is whining but pages 30-40 of posters bashing Bernie supporters for....supporting Bernie isn't.

That's because that isn't whining. That's people voicing their concerns about Bernie as a potential Democratic nominee for President. I've made some of those posts. But I've also made them about Biden, Buttigieg, Bloomberg, Booker and Warren.

I'm saying "get use to it". It comes with the territory. This isn't personal. Learn how to defend your guy and your positions without getting frustrated. Take a deep breath.

I want most of what you want. But we get nowhere if Trump wins. And as much as I like Bernie I want to kick that orange turd out even more.

 

[dudalb]

Problem I have with the Bernie Bros is I don't think a candidate ever lived who is as perfect in every way as they claim Bernie is.

 

[angrysoba]

Does Bernie get the concept of the perfect being the enemy of the good? For example, if he is eventually the nominee/president, and there's a reasonable chance to make health care better, would he stand his ground on single-payer UHC with private insurance outlawed? Can he be part of a coalition working to make things better incrementally, or would he reject such changes?

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. The point is to win. The logistics of policy negotiations can surely wait.

 

[acbytesla]

Problem I have with the Bernie Bros is I don't think a candidate ever lived who is as perfect in every way as they claim Bernie is.

I'm pretty damn liberal. But I really can't stand liberals who don't understand compromise. Ted Kennedy's followers in 1980, Nader's followers in 2000, Jill Stein advocates and to a degree, the Bernie Bros in 2016 and now in 2020. It's not a conspiracy just because your guy lost.

 

[Sideroxylon]

The presidency is surely a learning curve for all who enter it. The most important thing anyone might do is to employ and listen to the best people. Lets have a revival in respect for expertise and erudition.

 

[angrysoba]

Problem I have with the Bernie Bros is I don't think a candidate ever lived who is as perfect in every way as they claim Bernie is.

I think you’re just making this up!

 

[Sideroxylon]

Problem I have with the Bernie Bros is I don't think a candidate ever lived who is as perfect in every way as they claim Bernie is.

The hyperbole and strawmanning never stops.

He is the only candidate in ages who is all about prioritising fixing the obscene wealth divide, lifting up the poorest and improving the lot of ordinary workers. Not some billionaire backed centrist who talks around and out the side of their mouths on these issues. Say stuff like that and have it reframed as some cultish adoration is dishonest.

 

[Segnosaur]

The hyperbole and strawmanning never stops.

He is the only candidate in ages who is all about prioritising fixing the obscene wealth divide, lifting up the poorest and improving the lot of ordinary workers. Not some billionaire backed centrist who talks around and out the side of their mouths on these issues. Say stuff like that and have it reframed as some cultish adoration is dishonest.

An example of another thing people may not like about Bernie Bros....

All Democrats would likely act to address the disparity between rich and poor. All would reverse elements of the Republican tax cuts to the wealthy. All of them would probably improve the social safety net and improve access to health care.

But to many Bernie Bros, only Sanders is interested in these things, ignoring the possibility that other politicians may address the same problems but in different ways.

No, Biden is not going to break into poor people's houses and steal their stuff. Mayor Pete is not going to ship poor people to Alaska. But the way you described it anyone who isn't willing to adopt Sanders policies might as well be a republican.

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[acbytesla]

The hyperbole and strawmanning never stops.

He is the only candidate in ages who is all about prioritising fixing the obscene wealth divide, lifting up the poorest and improving the lot of ordinary workers. Not some billionaire backed centrist who talks around and out the side of their mouths on these issues. Say stuff like that and have it reframed as some cultish adoration is dishonest.

That's not true. Every single Democrat has proposed ideas regarding wealth inequality.
Still, his ideas go nowhere even if he's elected and can't sway the Blue Dogs. And it is doubly certain that it goes nowhere unless Bernie can win in the General.