Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 19

[Delphic Oracle]

I've got a feeling if this was 1776, you would be a loyalist. Long live the king!!

The person questioning the wisdom of blind allegiance would be a loyalist?

Fascinating.

 

[acbytesla]

Most countries did not legally have a separate racial definition of people. Slavery was never legal in England. Although there was initially some confusion it became established that a slave became free when stepping foot on English soil. This was of course one of the causes of the American colonies rebelling, the concern that English law would be enforced with the end of slavery as a consequence. One of the terms of the peace treaty following the war of 1814 required the US government to end slavery.

So for most of Europe your rights were the same regardless of your colour. Of course these rights might be fairly minimal, and women had fewer rights than men.

Yet England was very much responsible for the slave trade in the Americas and Caribbean. These were English colonies. The slave triangle was a real thing.

 

[Planigale]

Would you care to elaborate on that by providing the identify of other countries that guaranteed the individual rights enumerated in the Constitution pre-1900?

ETA: What other countries offered the ability to rise above the socio-ecomonic class into which you were born in the same way the US did?

Taking the assumption that you really only refer to white men.

I would argue that 17th and 18th and 19th century Britain had dramatic social mobility as compared with anywhere else. Pretty much from the end of the Tudor period the middle class developed and essentially became the dominant force in the economy. It was that new middle class that moved to America. It is worth remembering that perhaps the one person who did most to produce the British Empire was Benjamin Disraeli. From a poor immigrant Jewish family he became arguably the most powerful person in the world and an Earl.

Of course most of the US rights were taken from those of revolutionary France. Most of the other protections were based on the English common law and included rights such as habeas corpus dating back to the thirteenth century. US rights were probably greater with regards to religious freedom than England, but considerably less in that they allowed slavery. Also it could be argued that the US failed (fails?) to protect the rights of the indigenous peoples. Revolutionary French rights were probably greater than those of the US in that they outlawed slavery, although they were more strongly anti-religious.

When thinking of rights in the US it is worth going beyond those permitted to white men. The US still allows child marriage, particularly in the case of rape - rather reminiscent of the practice in many Islamic countries.

 

[acbytesla]

I've got a feeling if this was 1776, you would be a loyalist. Long live the king!!

Why do you think that?

It really is hard to say Brooklyn. But I have to wonder how well you understand the American rebellion. The vast majority of the colonists in 1776 were loyalists. We think of the American rebels as the good guys because we live in the nation that was formed as the result of that rebellion. But for all the worthy ideals professed in the following line of the Declaration of Independence, one cannot but cringe at its hypocrisy.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They then go form a government where owning and buying and selling human beings is legal.

My question to you is "what makes America and Americans special in your mind? This is a serious question not a "gotcha" question. I have thought deeply about this question and I have my answer. But I want to know your thoughts.

 

[acbytesla]

Taking the assumption that you really only refer to white men.

I would argue that 17th and 18th and 19th century Britain had dramatic social mobility as compared with anywhere else. Pretty much from the end of the Tudor period the middle class developed and essentially became the dominant force in the economy. It was that new middle class that moved to America. It is worth remembering that perhaps the one person who did most to produce the British Empire was Benjamin Disraeli. From a poor immigrant Jewish family he became arguably the most powerful person in the world and an Earl.

Of course most of the US rights were taken from those of revolutionary France. Most of the other protections were based on the English common law and included rights such as habeas corpus dating back to the thirteenth century. US rights were probably greater with regards to religious freedom than England, but considerably less in that they allowed slavery. Also it could be argued that the US failed (fails?) to protect the rights of the indigenous peoples. Revolutionary French rights were probably greater than those of the US in that they outlawed slavery, although they were more strongly anti-religious.

When thinking of rights in the US it is worth going beyond those permitted to white men. The US still allows child marriage, particularly in the case of rape - rather reminiscent of the practice in many Islamic countries.

Sorry it was the other way around. The French Revolution happened in 1789. Thirteen years after the American Revolution. The US Constitution was written in1789. Now if you mean to say that people like Voltaire and Rousseau influenced America you would be right.
I would argue the person's ideas which are most influential to both the US and France was a Brit by birth and that person is Thomas Paine.

 

[Upchurch]

Sorry it was the other way around. The French Revolution happened in 1789. Thirteen years after the American Revolution. The US Constitution was written in1789. Now if you mean to say that people like Voltaire and Rousseau influenced America you would be right.
I would argue the person's ideas which are most influential to both the US and France was a Brit by birth and that person is Thomas Paine.

Perhaps the French Enlightenment?

 

[Norman Alexander]

Sorry it was the other way around. The French Revolution happened in 1789. Thirteen years after the American Revolution. The US Constitution was written in1789. Now if you mean to say that people like Voltaire and Rousseau influenced America you would be right.
I would argue the person's ideas which are most influential to both the US and France was a Brit by birth and that person is Thomas Paine.

Perhaps the French Enlightenment?

Very interesting subject, but... Not the least bit relatable to Donald Trump and his disaster of a presidency. The only French he knows is fries.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Very interesting subject, but... Not the least bit relatable to Donald Trump and his disaster of a presidency. The only French he knows is fries.

We don't have french fries in the U.S., only freedom fries.

 

[Norman Alexander]

We don't have french fries in the U.S., only freedom fries.

Predictable.

 

[alfaniner]

Did anyone see the Grand Entrance Trump made before giving his briefing this morning? While his entourage made a corridor for him, the double doors to the Oval Office magically opened, and there stood, in a dark silhouette surrounded by a bright halo, The Man himself. He paused dramatically for a few seconds and walked up to the lectern, and the doors magically closed behind him.

Then, before even giving a greeting or introduction, said

As long as I am President of the United States, Iran will never be allowed to have a nuclear weapon.

How dramatic!!!

 

[Norman Alexander]

As long as I am President of the United States, Iran will never be allowed to have a nuclear weapon.

Iran: Oh good! That means it will be ready in under 12 months!

 

[acbytesla]

Perhaps the French Enlightenment?

That's fair.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Trump does represent your country, he is your duly elected representative.

I don't agree. He doesn't represent the country, he represents a fraction of it. And he wasn't duly elected, the election was seriously tainted.

You are welcome to disagree.

If by attack you mean violence than I don't support terrorism by anyone, and I only support violence in a very few specific circumstances. I may support non violent actions but it would depend on the exact circumstances and the non violent action taken.

It was only a choice of targets if Iran decided on violence, I was not advocating violence.

Like I said, I like the bed-bug option.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Tuesday, the White House indicated that it would veto the PFAS Action Act of 2019 legislation designed to keep harmful chemicals out of groundwater should it pass through the House and the Senate.


Drinking water at the Trump National Golf Course in Bedminster, New Jersey has tested positive for PFAS, with levels twice as high as what the EPA considers to be safe.

https://www.newsweek.com/white-hous...ting-forever-chemicals-drinking-water-1480947

This needs more attention.

 

[Trebuchet]

This needs more attention.

So do a lot of things; hence the Iran distraction.

 

[Stacyhs]

Most countries did not legally have a separate racial definition of people. Slavery was never legal in England. Although there was initially some confusion it became established that a slave became free when stepping foot on English soil. This was of course one of the causes of the American colonies rebelling, the concern that English law would be enforced with the end of slavery as a consequence. One of the terms of the peace treaty following the war of 1814 required the US government to end slavery.

So for most of Europe your rights were the same regardless of your colour. Of course these rights might be fairly minimal, and women had fewer rights than men.

Whether slavery was legal or not in England was not always clear. Some judicial decisions said it was, while others said it was not. For example, Yorke-Talbot (1729) found that a slave's status did not change when he came to England, a slave could be forced to return to the colonies from England, and that baptism would not free a slave. It's not a clear cut case that slavery was never legal in England. That is never existed in the same way as it did in the British colonies is not in dispute.



Most slaves initially brought to Colonial America were brought by the English. But, for the most part, we are in agreement. England's air may have been too pure for slavery as Lord Mansfield opined, but apparently the air of the Colonies was not.

 

[dudalb]

Man do I agree with this. Nothing I can't stand more than the holier than thou morons who cut their noses off to spite their face. I like Warren more than I do Biden. But I'm with Joe all the way if he wins the nomination.

Problem is you have people who are more concerned with being ideological pure then actually making the compromises you have to make to get anything done.

 

[Ladewig]

1983 Beirut Marine Barracks Attack
USS Cole Attack
9/11 Attack

President Trump: “By removing Soleimani, we have sent a powerful message to terrorists: If you value your own life, you will not threaten the lives of our people.”

Is it really that hard for President Trump to comprehend that many terrorists are very willing to give their own lives to create an act of terrorism?

.....
I’m running out of insults for the president.
Maybe dunderhead. I don’t think I’ve used dunderhead.

 

[dudalb]

Iran: Oh good! That means it will be ready in under 12 months!

Then he should have kept in the Iranian deal, which, whatever it's faults..and it had many..was making it hard for Iran to get a Nuclear Weapon.
My main criticism of the deal was that it should have been broader and also dealt with Iran's generally being a bad actor in the Mideast..their support of terrorist groups in particular....but half a loaf is better then none, and now we have none.

 

[Ladewig]

Problem is you have people who are more concerned with being ideological pure then actually making the compromises you have to make to get anything done.

Yes.
I can’t remember exactly when the Democrats were first widely labeled as evil. Once that occurred, people started pontificating about never compromising with evil. And after that, we ended up with the mess we see today.