Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

[Cabbage]

You are correct in your assessment. If it were merely opinions expressed here in this sleepy little backwater, it wouldn't matter, but the opinions here are reflected in lots of people in the real world, too.

And it's also correct that you, and lots of other people, don't grasp what the problem is.

A complete discussion would be off topic, so I'll focus on just how it relates to impeachment.


I chimed in with the thought that by defying a court order, Trump had crossed a line which might turn the tide in the impeachment discussion, and that Democrats ought to push it, because it might result in removing Trump from office.

To me, that sounds pretty anti-Trump. Democrats ought to pursue a course that would give Trump the boot. Sounds almost like I don't like Trump and would like to see him removed from office.


However, that's not good enough around here. I always hesitate to put words in other people's mouths, or try to understand motivations especially when I disagree with what people are saying, but I'm just trying to make sense of the response. It seems like I expressed an anti-Trump opinion, but it wasn't sufficiently anti-Trump to satisfy a lot of people. I'm not really certain why that is, but I guess it is because it implies that the known facts, as they exist, are not adequate to throw Trump out. I'm saying we need more.

That, apparently, is anathema. It's objective reality, but it's anathema. In order to sit at the cool kids' lunch table, you have to express the opinion that Donald Trump is the absolute worst thing that ever happened to America, that he is clearly a dirty criminal who ought to be in a jail cell, and, here comes the most important part of all, that anyone who disagrees is just a dumbass. How did Joe phrase it? I remember, "sad, smarmy, disaffected, nihilistic trolls".

And that attitude is nearly ubiquitous on the left. It's not just about impeachment, but that happens to be the subject here. People are tired of that attitude. So many people have been kicked out of the cool kids' lunch table that it turns out the rest of the school doesn't even like the cool kids anymore.

Again, you're ignoring the aspect of right wing media here. Take for example "The War on Christmas": Sure, you can find examples of corporations and such (and some individuals) that demand we replace "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays", but to hear Fox News tell it, it's an organized liberal conspiracy to transform the holiday into something unrecognizable.

What you speak of does exist, but you are presenting only less than half of the complete issue by ignoring the rest.

 

[Belz...]

Again, you're ignoring the aspect of right wing media here. Take for example "The War on Christmas": Sure, you can find examples of corporations and such (and some individuals) that demand we replace "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays", but to hear Fox News tell it, it's an organized liberal conspiracy to transform the holiday into something unrecognizable.

Worse: the change is to accomodate more people and foster inclusion. They take it as divisive and as an attack; it's bizarro-reality.

 

[varwoche]

And it's also correct that you, and lots of other people, don't grasp what the problem is.

Perhaps. Unfortunately I'm still not grasping things after reading your post.

We're in uncharted, chaotic water. The strands of history that lead us here are complicated. (I see Roe v Wade as seminal, but that's a topic for another place and time.) I tend to think that anyone who thinks they grasp the problem/solution is grasping at straws. I'm not confident there is a solution. The divide might be incurable, insofar as the US functioning as a healthy democracy.

A complete discussion would be off topic, so I'll focus on just how it relates to impeachment.

I chimed in with the thought that by defying a court order, Trump had crossed a line which might turn the tide in the impeachment discussion, and that Democrats ought to push it, because it might result in removing Trump from office.

To me, that sounds pretty anti-Trump. Democrats ought to pursue a course that would give Trump the boot. Sounds almost like I don't like Trump and would like to see him removed from office.

However, that's not good enough around here...

Yeah tribalism and insistence on purity are constantly depressing to me. Notwithstanding, even if we could fix that with a magic spell, I have a hard time envisioning things falling into place. I'll leave it at that in deference to the thread topic.

 

[JoeMorgue]

So "Trump is a reasonable and just punishment for liberal hubris" is just where we're landing at and never going to get any type of clarification on then?

 

[BrooklynBaby]

The corrupt mainstream media is the cause of the great divide. Get them to tell the truth for a change and the problem is pretty much resolved.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The corrupt mainstream media is the cause of the great divide. Get them to tell the truth for a change and the problem is pretty much resolved.

What truth is that? The truth about the climate change hoax, Hillary's pizza parlor child sex dungeon, that massive wave of criminal brown people that was working it way north toward's our border that really should have been here by now, the New World Order, or Obama being just... like the worst Secret Muslim Sleeper Agent possible?

 

[Belz...]

The corrupt mainstream media

And by "corrupt", you mean "they disagree with me."

Get them to tell the truth

See?

 

[BrooklynBaby]

What truth is that? The truth about the climate change hoax, Hillary's pizza parlor child sex dungeon, that massive wave of criminal brown people that was working it way north toward's our border that really should have been here by now, the New World Order, or Obama being just... like the worst Secret Muslim Sleeper Agent possible?

I'm thinking more in terms of the White Hispanic, the Trump Tower Meeting, Blasey Ford, Julie Sputnik or whatever her name was, Darren Wilson, "Hands up, don't shoot", yes -- the climate change hoax, and on and on and on.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm thinking more in terms of the White Hispanic, the Trump Tower Meeting, Blasey Ford, Julie Sputnik or whatever her name was, Darren Wilson, "Hands up, don't shoot", yes -- the climate change hoax, and on and on and on.

Oh so nonsense. Got it.

"I'm voting for Trump because he let's me be wrong about insane governmental conspiracy theories"

I'm sorry your self identity is so tied up in the idea that Hillary Clinton has a child sex pizza dungeon that changing your mind is tantamount to committing suicide by maybe try changing your mind when presented with facts, it might do wonders for you.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

Trump won because Hillary didn't energise the base, not because of something related to Trump.

Stop it, just stop it. Maybe you weren't energized but millions of women and others were.

She won by almost 3 million votes.

Trump won by cheating and by Comey sabotaging Clinton.

 

[JoeMorgue]

She won by almost 3 million votes.

If we picked the President based on popular vote that would men something.

Hillary was playing the EC game the same as Trump, she just lost it.

I'm sure Hillary Clinton energized millions of women in states she already was going to win.

 

[Segnosaur]

The corrupt mainstream media is the cause of the great divide. Get them to tell the truth for a change and the problem is pretty much resolved.

You know, you might actually be correct....

You see, Trump is an extremely corrupt politician who engages in dishonest tactics. However, the mainstream media had a bad habit of not properly challenging his lies and giving him more credibility than he deserved.

If the media had treated him as the joke he was right from the beginning, Trump probably would never have made it to the white house. Instead, they treated him far more kindly than he deserved (partly as an attempt to appear 'unbiased', something that shouldn't be done if one side is actually in the wrong, partly as a way to garner ratings.)

Heck, if Matt Lauer had actually done his job during the 2016 "commander in chief" interviews (by actually challenging Trump's lies), Trump's idiocy would have been highlighted to a wider audience early on, possibly causing him to lose the election.

 

[Upchurch]

If we picked the President based on popular vote that would men something.

Hillary was playing the EC game the same as Trump, she just lost it.

I'm sure Hillary Clinton energized millions of women in states she already was going to win.

I believe the claim SG was responding to is that Clinton didn't energize the base, not that she should have won because of that. I think the real question is whether or not energizing the base is a, or even the, major contributing factor to winning the electoral college.

It isn't sufficient, but is it necessary? I don't know.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm just getting tired of getting reminded every 5 seconds that Hillary won the popular vote as if the EC is some concept that suck up on her and took her by surprise.

She understands the EC just as well as Trump did and was playing the exact same game, she just lost it.

The EC is a horrible, broken system but it's the system both Hillary and Trump knew they were playing. It's like a hockey team trying to argue after the fact that they should get the Stanley Cup because they won more faceoffs and had more shots on goal even though the other team actually scored more goals.

Put it this way. Would Hillary have conceded if she won the EC but Trump the popular vote? Of course goddamn bloody not she's be President right now and would not be losing any sleep over the fact.

 

[Ziggurat]

If the media had treated him as the joke he was right from the beginning, Trump probably would never have made it to the white house.

You can thank Hillary in part for that. It was a deliberate strategy of hers to try to elevate Trump's profile during the primaries.

Heck, if Matt Lauer had actually done his job

If you're relying on Matt "door button" Lauer to save you, you've chosen poorly.

 

[acbytesla]

+1

It doesn't matter how liberals talk to or treat the Right Wing, the Right Wing will always claim that liberals are "angry" "scared" "condescending" "elitist" or "divisive." People who are not in the Right Wing shouldn't care about hurting the feelings of the Right because the Right doesn't really care and the Right will claim victim-hood no matter what.

The problem is the right wing lives in a bubble where these attitudes are repeated over and over again ad nauseam.

I don't even know what liberal and conservative mean any more. Outside of being pro guns, anti-choice, a phobia of homosexuals and people of a different color or religion, I don't have a clue. There was a time it meant being fiscally conservative and a free markets advocate but that time has past.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

You can thank Hillary in part for that. It was a deliberate strategy of hers to try to elevate Trump's profile during the primaries.



If you're relying on Matt "door button" Lauer to save you, you've chosen poorly.

HRC is responsible for everything Trump does?
Not sure Trump would be pleased to know that.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If we picked the President based on popular vote that would men something.

Hillary was playing the EC game the same as Trump, she just lost it.

I'm sure Hillary Clinton energized millions of women in states she already was going to win.

Well let's all just spend the next decade bashing Clinton some more. It needs to stop.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I believe the claim SG was responding to is that Clinton didn't energize the base, not that she should have won because of that. I think the real question is whether or not energizing the base is a, or even the, major contributing factor to winning the electoral college.

It isn't sufficient, but is it necessary? I don't know.

Sanders energized the base and he couldn't win the primary against a candidate who supposedly didn't.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm just getting tired of getting reminded every 5 seconds that Hillary won the popular vote as if the EC is some concept that suck up on her and took her by surprise....

And some of us are sick of hearing the lie that Clinton was an uninspiring candidate or she didn't energize the base.